Utopia Talk / Politics / europe will cave on ukraine

Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 15 08:49:37 Allready the eu funds and weapons transfers are slowing down. Now we find that germany wants to negotiate with russia. Those poor ukrainians:(
Rugian Member	Fri Nov 15 09:00:52 This is 110% Europe's fault. We told them for years to meet their AGREED UPON TREATY OBLIGATIONS to increase defense spending. Instead, they called Trump stupid for demanding it and Americans stupid for supporting Trump. Look at you faggots now. A failed petrostate starts a war of aggression on your borders and you're already our of materiel and munitions. Good job playing yourselves, you Euro cucks.
Rugian Member	Fri Nov 15 09:00:52 This is 110% Europe's fault. We told them for years to meet their AGREED UPON TREATY OBLIGATIONS to increase defense spending. Instead, they called Trump stupid for demanding it and Americans stupid for supporting Trump. Look at you faggots now. A failed petrostate starts a war of aggression on your borders and you're already our of materiel and munitions. Good job playing yourselves, you Euro cucks.
Rugian Member	Fri Nov 15 09:00:52 This is 110% Europe's fault. We told them for years to meet their AGREED UPON TREATY OBLIGATIONS to increase defense spending. Instead, they called Trump stupid for demanding it and Americans stupid for supporting Trump. Look at you faggots now. A failed petrostate starts a war of aggression on your borders and you're already our of materiel and munitions. Good job playing yourselves, you Euro cucks.
TheChildren Member	Fri Nov 15 09:21:54 "now we find out" >> lol wut? u mean u found out. everyone else alrdy knew
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 15 09:40:36 Lol
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 15 10:02:57 The war was provoked by the Americans. Now they are gonna abandon Ukraine and dump their shit on Europe. And Germany is struggling because they shut down their power plants (lol) and the US destroyed the Nord Stream pipeline (lol) and Olaf agreed to buy energy from the US at tripple cost (lol) and the rest of the EU decided (after pressure from the US) that they don’t want cheap energy either anymore. How can a weak Europe hope to defeat Russia? Lol But it doesn’t matter. Ukraine would never have been able to defeat Russia anyways. Even less so now, it’s too late. Which is probably why funds and weapons to Ukraine are slowing down. It’s over.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 15 10:31:26 http://www...raine/ukraine-support-tracker/
jergul large member	Fri Nov 15 11:26:11 Well of course. The US is the leader of the Free World. Where you lead, we follow. Right now, you are leading us towards a negotiated end to the war. Your voters have spoken, so it has been decided.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 15 11:27:15 Ruggy How is that wall building going? For something literally on someone's borders.
Forwyn Member	Fri Nov 15 11:46:01 For all of the cries of fascism sweeping across the Western world, Eurocucks sure are happy to force thousands of conscripts to push the line into Russia proper to force a more favorable negotiation for the corrupt little slush fund coup-state.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 15 12:21:23 The US is merely tired of paying your bills for you. You could.... defend your own borders with your own money. Amazing concept i know.
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 15 12:32:14 I never asked the US for protection. Millions of Swedes never did. But yet here we are. We are forced to pay money for protection, against our will. What can I do? Call the police and say there’s a mafia who has offered me protection against my will and they demand money from me in return. ?
Seb Member	Fri Nov 15 12:40:13 Squints at map showing funding to Ukraine being much darker in Europe than in the US.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 15 13:23:47 And also a lot of US aid is actually surplus kit slated for disposal being priced at replacement value rather than book value. So actual cost to the US is possibly negative (transportation costs less than storage, maintenance and scrapping costs)
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 15 13:25:47 Seb posted a per capita map to inflate euro contributions. In reality you are just poor and bad at math, and also neglect the US fleet and nuclear umbrella which provides the large share of europes defense... a vastly larger expense than the ukraine. You have free healthcare because we pay for your defense. In response what do we recieve? Hostility, antiwhite racism, and antisemitism. No longer.
murder Member	Fri Nov 15 14:02:00 "The US is merely tired of paying your bills for you. You could.... defend your own borders with your own money." Ukraine is no more their border than ours.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 15 14:15:22 "he US fleet" Which protects us from what, exactly? The US fleet uses Europe to project its forces. It contributes nothing to the defence of Europe. Your nuclear umbrella counts for nothing: you've shown you are frightened of Russian threats to escalate to nuclear weapons to the point you welched on your security guarantees to Ukraine. You won't even let them use the surplus weapons you've provided to attack deep into Russia because you are frightened of Russian retaliation. There is absolutely no belief you would use nuclear weapons to defend Europe under an Atlantacist, and your current president is no Atlantacist. Even in absolute terms, European contributions exceed American contributions.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 15 14:17:48 The sad facts are that Europe got suckered into fighting America's wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, but Americans have no honour or integrity. Europe has no choice but to look to defend itself, whatever deal or quid-pro-quo America might offer is irrelevant. It can't be trusted to carry through. Without that, the logic of the web of transatlantic economic treaties is gone.
murder Member	Fri Nov 15 16:03:36 "Your nuclear umbrella counts for nothing: you've shown you are frightened of Russian threats to escalate to nuclear weapons to the point you welched on your security guarantees to Ukraine. You won't even let them use the surplus weapons you've provided to attack deep into Russia because you are frightened of Russian retaliation." 100%
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 15 16:57:23 "Europe has no choice but to look to defend itself" Editors note: europe does not want to and will not defend itself.
Paramount Member	Fri Nov 15 17:26:33 It’s in the US interest to defend western Europe. We don’t need to spend all that money that the US wants us to spend on defence. If Russia wins influence over Western Europe or if Western Europe aligns with Russia, then the US would view it as a threat to itself and they would come and liberate us whether we spend 1% or 4% of our gdp on defence. If USA loses Europe, who they gonna replace it with? Mexico? Venezuela?
jergul large member	Fri Nov 15 20:03:11 Sammy Ukraine no longer part of Europe?
Seb Member	Sat Nov 16 04:19:12 Europe provides the larger part of aid to Ukraine, the US actively trying to limit it. Sam: "eUr0pE wOnt dEfeNd"
Seb Member	Sat Nov 16 05:39:12 Whether Europe defends itself or not is not really a consideration for the US now. The belief it will do so (irrespective of policy statements one way or the other, or whether the US recognises that it is overwhelmingly in its interest to do so) is gone which means it has no value for deterrence and no value from a trade/finance perspective. In trying to extract further rents than it already has from the arrangements, it's tanked the value of the asset and likely to come out with less than it has. Similarly for Europe, the option just isn't on the table, whether Europe believes it can defend itself or not. It's not a question of whether to make concessions for security guarantees - those guarantees are unreliable and so not worth any concessions (not even the ones already made). If we are vulnerable to Russia, we are vulnerable to Russia and no concessions to get non-credible guarantees from the US will address that.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 16 13:02:12 "Europe provides the larger part of aid to Ukraine" More seb made up fairy tales. Anyway you seem to be making my case for me... the wu is soft and sees no value in itself, and thus wont defend itself.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 16 13:09:36 The eu
Rugian Member	Sat Nov 16 17:43:43 Seb I'm seeing a fuckton of "we"s from you. You realize the UK is no longer tied to the EUSSR, right?
Rugian Member	Sat Nov 16 17:44:49 You're no more European than I am. And the fact that that enrages you...pleases me.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 05:54:10 Sam can't count.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 05:59:07 Rugian: We (the UK) aren't in the EU, we are still in Europe and a number of European structures, and the conversation is regarding the threat of US exiting NATO to European countries and others in the neighborhood. Whether we are in the EU or not, nothing can alter the fact the UK is a country situated in Europe with interests in European security. Rugian, the idea that this could ever be otherwise is just another example of how much the ideological brainworms have consumed of your brain
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 07:17:18 I guess Rugian doesn't think Switzerland or Norway are European countries either. And presumably before 1993, nobody was European. Europe didn't exist!!
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 07:21:55 "And the fact that that enrages you...pleases me." This makes me want to give you a pat on the back and tell you chin-up things will get better (but not with that attitude).
murder Member	Sun Nov 17 14:53:36 Two months before leaving office, Biden finally (supposedly) agrees to allow Ukraine to use US weapons to strike "deep" into Russia. *golf clap* I'm going to assume that there are still ridiculous restriction.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 14:56:52 Living up to Churchill's aphorism there.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 17 15:46:28 That is one of the problems with the narrative. Russia cannot escalate in reponse to any escalation because it is already doing everything it can to destroy Ukraine. So the analysis misses "you know, Russia will disconnect the NPPs from the grid and turn Ukraine into NK if we start doing deep strikes". Cue shock and surprise that the immediate Russia response was a pretty massive strike on electricity that caused blackouts everywhere.
murder Member	Sun Nov 17 17:43:05 I knew it was bullshit. The US has only authorized use of US weapons in the Kursk region. After spending years yammering about the importance of defeating Russia in Ukraine, we've made it perfectly clear that it really wasn't important at all. The US should have no credibility left. Joe Biden should be locked up for all the damage he's caused.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 17 20:10:33 Murder Dont be such a worrywart. The Kursk NPP is in *drum roll* Kursk.
Paramount Member	Mon Nov 18 03:23:26 Genocide Joe and the Genocide Liberals are trying to destroy as much as possible for Trump before he is inaugurated.
Paramount Member	Mon Nov 18 03:28:12 Putin has said that the potential decision to use Western long-range missiles to strike deep into Russia would be viewed as the USA's and other NATO countries direct participation in the war, which Putin said would significantly change "the very nature of the conflict."
Paramount Member	Mon Nov 18 03:29:47 Remember when all the Democrats told everyone that Trump would start WW3 if he was elected.
murder Member	Mon Nov 18 06:47:44 "Putin has said that the potential decision to use Western long-range missiles to strike deep into Russia would be viewed as the USA's and other NATO countries direct participation in the war, which Putin said would significantly change "the very nature of the conflict."" Again? Nobody cares about his lame ass threats ... except his dog.
jergul large member	Mon Nov 18 07:14:28 Murder You should care. Russia can dramatically increase the cost of doing business for US force projection. Imagine having to assume that any tribal crackpot has access to Russian satellite imagery. To name a very simple thing. In essence. Any support you have given Ukraine is also support Russian can give others. Particularly after the active part of the conflict in Ukraine ends.
LazyCommunist Member	Mon Nov 18 09:12:30 Westerners: prepare to be destroyed, all of you. Even useful idiots like Paramount will perish, there is now way out for you unless you move to Russia right now!
Paramount Member	Mon Nov 18 11:18:16 Murder, No, not again. He said that earlier.
murder Member	Mon Nov 18 12:00:46 "You should care. Russia can dramatically increase the cost of doing business for US force projection." Could they? Imagine having to assume that any tribal crackpot has access to Russian satellite imagery. To name a very simple thing. In essence. Any support you have given Ukraine is also support Russian can give others. Particularly after the active part of the conflict in Ukraine ends." They have a hard enough time giving themselves that support. "
murder Member	Tue Nov 19 12:33:37 Putin signs law allowing nuclear strike in response to long-range missile attack http://www...e-conventional-strike-ukraine/
murder Member	Tue Nov 19 12:36:11 Ukraine fired six long-range missiles at Russian military facility, says Kremlin http://www...atacms-missiles-attacks-russia Oh well. :o)
jergul large member	Tue Nov 19 17:31:02 The nuclear strike thingy has been going through the Russian Congress (Duma) for a while. Legislation triggered by Ukraine hitting a Russian early warning radar. Closes a loophole using 3rd parties to degrade Russia's nuclear deterrent. The president signing it into law now is purely coincidental. The Duma simply passed the bill into law recently. TThe law still needed a presidential signature.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 19 19:03:37 ”You should care. Russia can dramatically increase the cost of doing business for US force projection." Yea just like Russia upgraded the Syrian air defences, just like Russia is willing to sell S400 and Su35 to the Islamic republic or allow IRGC missiles to use Russian GPS. You have a habit of overestimating Russian capabilities and their willingness to allow various crazy people access to those capabilities. So, while it is debatable if they can, they are clearly not willing to even do it for their supposed allies.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 19 19:19:50 Nimi Reread. Cost of doing business does not infer that complex attacks on Syria are impossible if sufficient planning and ISR resources are allocated. Nor that IRGC missiles are impossible to stop if you are willing to use very expensive missiles to do so. But the Yolo days of bombing the technological equivalent of hottentots are pretty much over.
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: