Utopia Talk / Politics / The 2 great pillars of US security

murder Member	Thu Jan 09 06:20:04 1. Oceans to our east (Atlantic) and west (Pacific). 2. Friendly nations on our northern (Canada) and southern (Mexico) borders. Donald Trump can't do anything about the first pillar, but he is doing everything he can to destroy the second one. He is also putting at risk our ability to move naval assets through the Panama Canal. He is undermining NATO. He is trying to turn the US from a nation that other countries form alliances with for security, to a nation that other countries form alliances against for security. It's almost as if a Russian asset was trying to destroy the United States.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 06:26:11 Murder: That, Musks political medeling, and the trade tariffs will make it that much easier to go after the US tech industry. Musk having an actual meeting to discuss how to bring down the UK govt outside of the elections is a direct attack by an incoming member of the US administration on the UK.
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 06:46:51 The UK has a right to self defense. Put a hole in his beenie. I don't understand why people in power allow coup plotters to plot out in the open without putting a sudden stop to it. -
Rugian Member	Thu Jan 09 06:59:00 - Panama is the one that is jeopardizing our use of the Canal by allowing the Chinese to manage the canal's entrance ports, becoming dependent on their investment money, and forging closer diplomatic relations with them. - Europe and Canada are undermining NATO by refusing to properly invest in their militaries. - Biden sat around and did nothing as China and Latin America cozied up to each other under his watch. - Acquiring Greenland would help protect us against Russia in the Arctic. He is literally trying to stop Russia.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 08:01:38 Rugian: Do you seriously believe this shit?
patom Member	Thu Jan 09 08:06:42 Seb Musk is not actually part of the US Govt. officially YET. He does seem to be married at the hip to Trump though. You Brits should just tell him to fuck off.
Rugian Member	Thu Jan 09 08:37:35 Seb Which one of those are you contesting as factually false?
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 08:53:03 Greenland for one. Denmark already lets the US use Greenland for any security measures the US feels it needs.
Rugian Member	Thu Jan 09 09:03:48 Pretty sure that's not going to be the case when the EU turns into a Chinese vassal state.
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 09:32:25 "Do you seriously believe this shit?" He's trying to.
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 09:34:38 "Which one of those are you contesting as factually false?" All of them.
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 09:36:57 "Pretty sure that's not going to be the case when the EU turns into a Chinese vassal state." The EU may form a partnership with China to contain the US, since an expansionist US is a much greater threat to the EU than China ever could be.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 09 10:15:47 "Friendly nations on our...southern (Mexico) borders." Lol. Soldiers popping off shots as distractions for human traffickers. They screech at the national level whenever we do anything about it. Sure, "friendly"
Rugian Member	Thu Jan 09 10:27:00 Murder You suffer the same histrionic attitude that Seb does on this issue. Oh boo hoo, the US under Trump is playing hardball with Europe on a couple of issues where the Europeans aren't doing their part. Obviously the only solution is for the EU to go to Defcon 1, completely burn its bridges with the US, and "forge its own path in the world"...which given Europe's fundamental weaknesses, that means becoming the junior partner of a country that is far less tolerant of European autonomy than the US is. Europe is the definition of someone who doesn't realize how lucky they have things. Yeah, it's so terrible to have to suffer free speech and 2% NATO spending requirements...much better to tie your wagons to Communist China. ROFL
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 10:36:19 "Oh boo hoo, the US under Trump is playing hardball with Europe on a couple of issues where the Europeans aren't doing their part. Obviously the only solution is for the EU to go to Defcon 1 ..." That happens when you threaten to invade. China isn't invading the territory of any EU member. Keep fucking around and find out.
Rugian Member	Thu Jan 09 10:37:38 We aren't threatening to invade dude. Come on.
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 10:38:08 "Sure, "friendly"" Yeah, friendly. The sort of friendly that allows you to keep two entire armies on the opposite side of the planet for 20 years without worrying for one second that you may get invaded.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Jan 09 11:53:09 "Musk having an actual meeting to discuss how to bring down the UK govt outside of the elections is a direct attack by an incoming member of the US administration on the UK." Lol go cry. You tards did the exact same thing by campaigning against trump.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Jan 09 11:54:31 "We can campaign against your politicians but you cannot with ours" Even seb must recognize the rank hypocrisy?
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 09 12:25:19 "that you may get invaded." 30 million is an invasion.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 13:29:59 Rugian: I'm sorry you don't see how it's completely unacceptable to European countries to rely on a fundamentally unreliable security partner that appears to have been compromised, and in any case is harbouring non state actors intent on interfering in our internal politics.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 13:31:19 If Europe has to play China and the US off eachother rather than an alliance with the US that's unfortunate but fine. Currently, the US is posing as great a threat to EU politics as China.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 13:36:53 "we aren't threatening to invade dude" Your incoming president is demanding to control a European territory and refuses to rule out force. And he's promised (and is beholden to) Musk, who is directly interfering in the elections of three European countries and having meetings to discuss the overthrow of a fourth. Now perhaps you think "lolz, no, it's all not serious", but unfortunately nobody in Europe thinks this is remotely funny when we have Russia waging hybrid war in Europe. Instead it looks very much like a shakedown, capitalising on Russ to extract danegeld and that's why the rift with US is "defcon 1" - if all we can rely on the US to do in times of emergency is to start trade wars, what fucking use is the US?
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 13:42:07 Sam: Private individuals going to join a campaign as a volunteer (entirely legal in US law, and something American conservatives and Liberals have long done in Europe) is not at all the same thing as an incoming member of the admin having meetings to discuss the overthrow of an allied govt and leveraging control of a major media platform to interfere in national elections, or conspire to provide illegal campaign donations to proxies. Musk is doing the exact same shit Putin has been doing in terms of political interference. So yes, that means increasingly Europe will look at Musk and by extension the US govt if he's involved in it, in the same light.
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 14:01:16 With China and Russia increasing their territory he's just following through and doing the same thing. Can't get stuck in the past clinging to old failing systems. Canada and Mexico should be completely subservient to US interests.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 15:18:48 I think everyone needs to get nukes, missiles, target the top five most populous cities in the US, Russia and China and have them on hair trigger launch on warning. We probably won't survive as a species but if that's the choice the US wants to make better we all burn free than live as slaves.
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 16:01:03 Nukes really aren't sufficient, you need to build large powerful armies to secure your interests. Missiles aren't sufficient either, only as part of a large force.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 16:17:55 TC: the US is terrified to let Ukraine use long range weapons of us origin against Russia due to the fear of nuclear escalation. It would work fine.
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 16:22:17 The nukes thing is interesting, they do seem to prevent direct wars between great powers but not much else. For example they don't do much of anything for Israel. India and Pakistan don't nuke each other. If Iran had nukes it wouldn't change much of anything, all it does is take organized direct invasion off the table.
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 16:26:24 The US fear isn't about nuclear retaliation, it's about setting the stage for the same type of action being done to it that it does to Russia. Russia will have many opportunities to give missiles to third parties to use against US bases and interests and is now morally free to do so. Giving the Ukrainians those rockets didn't do anything to advance the war or change the scenario on the ground but it does mean that US ships must now stay further away from Yemen or any similar scenario because the other side could simply suddenly have a giant leap in technology and sink something.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 16:35:06 TC You are not wrong in isolation. Thoughts like that is why the NPT was originally designed as an award programme. Don't get nuke and here is all the nice things we will help you with instead. The whole punitive approach is inherently unsustainable. The problem is math. A small chance of things going horribly wrong between two actors grow exponentially as more actors are added. Unchecked? Humanity as we know it will not break 2100.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 16:48:25 Besides, we want greenland, iceland and the faeroe islands back. They were part of Norway and forgotten to be included when Norway left in 1814. Dibs!
murder Member	Thu Jan 09 16:51:45 "Russia will have many opportunities to give missiles to third parties to use against US bases and interests and is now morally free to do so." Every rogue state in the world has Russian ballistic missiles and knockoffs. -
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 17:08:12 Jergul yup, my hope is that they can sign new treaties and go back to getting rid of their nukes. They don't serve a good purpose. Murder no... North Korea doesn't even have them. Iran doesn't. Syria didn't. Who exactly does?
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 17:09:20 TC: It's absolutely about nuclear retaliation. Not because they fear Russia nuking the US but because if Russia uses nukes against Ukraine, then the US won't muster a credible enough response to prevent others preferring nukes to us security guarantees; and then everyone will have nukes in 5 years and American power is meaningless because any regime with nukes faced with existential threat presents far too high a risk of turning a US city to ash; which is well outside the risk appetite for the US for anything. Russia and China already sell access denial weapons and have been for ages. Basically the US has decided to piss away it's strategic advantages and alliances. This will ultimately have an economic consequence.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jan 09 17:10:27 The devolution of this thread is exactly and the only reason we need to colonize space. You may solve the problem with the air, the oceans, save the whales and the snails, shit you may even aolve poverty. You will never solve people… and their nukes. Better to just spread out, and eventually one of the colonial civilizations of humanity may figure things out. Currently our specie is trending towards doom, we are extinct and just don’t know it yet.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 09 17:11:27 TC: "Jergul yup, my hope is that they can sign new treaties and go back to getting rid of their nukes. They don't serve a good purpose." Yes they do. The ability to not have to worry their country and prosperity depends on what the idiots on Ohio think.
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 17:16:35 Seb it doesn't provide that
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jan 09 17:52:50 As we can see the US can wreck your country and prosperity via sanctions on third parties even when you are it's ally. No nukes required at all.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 19:39:52 TC Or just honour the wording of the original NPT.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 19:41:02 Nimi Colonize Greenland first. Of orders of magnitude easier to do.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 19:42:04 I would personally love to see a self-financed Musk promoted community surviving on Greenland.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 19:43:03 Or on other words: lifeboat strategies are ludicrous.
TheChildren Member	Thu Jan 09 23:47:08 omg lol oh look mommy them scary chaynieses r runnin da panaanaaa rofl maybe u should have invested and build and upgraded in other countries instead of buildin (useless) bases 4 military welfare checks
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 02:00:35 Turtle crawler: "As we can see the US can wreck your country and prosperity via sanctions on third parties" Only in so far as we persist in treating the US as a stable place to do business. I think that's coming to an end.
patom Member	Fri Jan 10 04:29:57 I'll laugh my ass off if Trump imposes the tariff on Canada. Immediately causing the paper mills here in Maine to shut down. One in Baileyville Maine gets most of their wood from New Brunswick, Canada. They make tissue paper products.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 04:54:22 In this context, where we are going extinct because humans with nukes will never find a way to get along, people like Jergul trying to make sure everybody dies are the true psychopaths. Further validating how important it is to get the away. Be motivated and help promote space colonization any way you can.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 05:05:15 I fear we need to learn to get along here cutie <3. I am fine with artisan space colonization (doubtless robots + embryos is the way to go for outside the solar system) after that. But for now, Earth is the lifeboat that will have to support all other lifeboats for 10s or 100ds of thousands of years. But sure. Buy Tesla stocks and SpaceX when it becomes available. Because space colonization is obviously something we can't trust Western governments to do. Though ultimately, if there is a space race for viable colonization, the Chinese will win that from what it looks like now.
murder Member	Fri Jan 10 06:45:17 "Murder no... North Korea doesn't even have them. Iran doesn't. Syria didn't. Who exactly does?" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-6 "As we can see the US can wreck your country and prosperity via sanctions on third parties even when you are it's ally. No nukes required at all." And countries don't retaliate with nukes because we have nukes. -
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 08:38:38 "and leveraging control of a major media platform to interfere in national elections" Ahahahahahahahahahahahajahaha Musk does that with 1 platform and seb gets butthurt, while doing the exact same thing with every other platform. Do what i say not what i do.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 08:42:06 No wonder you want to ban speech. With arguments as retarded as yours, the only way to get votes is to get rid of all non-approved media and let the bbc carry to gospel of the incompetent to the captive audience.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jan 10 09:14:36 "any regime with nukes faced with existential threat presents far too high a risk of turning a US city to ash" Do they have teleporters?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 09:22:05 “We need to learn to get along” Now that, is cute. Deluded, wishful and part and parcel of a lot of leftarded thinking, but cute.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 09:36:13 Nimi Au contraire, cutie <3. Elon's sperm will never colonize anything off planet permanently if life boat earth sinks. We need to keep what we have intact for 10s and 100ds thousand years if any seeding strategy is to succeed.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 10:24:51 Not obsessed with Musk or anything. No sir.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 10:31:21 Jergul is a prime example of why we are fucked, and will never get along, because so many like him are so fucking stupid. Like way too stupid for their own good and the good of the specie. You don’t get a long with terminally stupid people, you isolate them. Unfortunately we live in a type of political system where all these people get to vote. Getting away from the is Plan B. And as Jergul desperately tries to show, his ilk will do everything to scuttle Plan B, which only leave us with Plan C, genocide.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 11:00:59 Sam: It's in no way the same. You can argue a platform might have an editorial bias. That's just "a newspaper" That is very different to what is very obviously a systematic attempt to feed deliberate lies to targeted voter segments, while limiting access to contrary information with the explicit intent to shape their views, encourage riots and civil disorder and thereby bringing down a foreign govt. The latter is hostile subversion at a state level capability, even if carried out by a non state actor.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 11:02:55 Forwyn: ICBMs are pretty easy and the US cannot enforce the control regimes without allies who are disinclined to do so when the US is ambiguous about whether they are potential targets of US aggression.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 10 11:11:02 Muslim rape gangs aren't a lie. Let's face it Seb. Your anger isn't with Musk because he's a state actor or whatever (he's not, by the way), it's because he's bringing to like a massive scandal that your elites thought they had managed to largely bury. Suck it up. The problem here isn't Musk, it's the British government which spent decades allowing Muslims to rape Beitish minors.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jan 10 11:12:22 pretty easy. That's why only eleven nations in the world have missiles with a range over 1,000km.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 12:06:32 Cutie, I have nothing against selfish gene afficiendoes. But it should be clear that what Elon envisions will not happen in his natural lifespan. This biological limitation is of course resolvable with a bit of creativity. What do you incidentally have against Musk planning to be an evolutionary bottleneck survivor? Interstellar colonization is an evolutionary bottleneck in any event. Does it matter that Musk prioritize getting his genetic material seeded outside of the solar system in the long run? Mars stuff is just getting the ball rolling. Hell, Musk can even go out in a blaze of glory on an exploding spacecraft at that point. An enduring trust can assure frozen specimens are ready when the algorythms call for melding some time quite a while from now. Who cares if humanity becomes Muskin? Was it not survival of the species and not this or that genetric tree what was important to you?
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 12:12:30 Rugian: There are numerous lies I won't expand on in what has been posted. Even the characterisation of it being a "Muslim" problem is dishonest when at least three white gangs with the same MO have been identified. The only reason these ones are being made the focus is to peddle a false conspiracy theory narrative of it being part of a white genocide facilitated by officialdom.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 12:14:09 "very obviously a systematic attempt to feed deliberate lies to targeted voter segments" Lmfao bbc boy
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 12:15:35 Specific examples of lies though include the role of current labour ministers in covering up the crimes when the exact reverse is true. Further, the claims regarding Stephen Yaxley-Lennon jailed for "bringing it to light" when in fact it was brought to light by mainstream media; he's jailed for multiple contempts of court that nearly brought down the trial of perpetrators; and his former colleagues in the EDL are among members of a white grooming gang.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jan 10 12:40:19 In Sebland, you get a trial for not giving the pigs your phone pin, and Seb cheers. Lol faggot
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 13:22:52 Forwyn: The reason to date is: 1. Pax Americana (which you've abandoned by watering down security guarantees and attempting to extract additional rents from) meaning there's no need for such technology in the first place. 2. The missile technology control regime making the acquisition of such technology and dual use components difficult by binding possessors of such technology into an effective cartel to not sell or distribute it or relevant enablers. 3. The non-proliferation regime and other international treaties and norms against the WMD that would go on such missiles. The US walking away from the post world order strongly changes the incentives on the latter two for the rest of the developed world; and without their cooperation unilateral enforcement isn't possible. Put it this way, without cast iron guarantees of American security, front line European and South East Asian states are going to want nukes and ICBMs, as are countries that take this new US appetite for expansionism seriously. The EU isn't going to stop Poland and other of its meets getting nukes, and they will happily sell to other allies in South East Asia. And China and Russia will, under that circumstance, happily sell to other countries. The only way the high barriers to entry for this technology are at all sustainable is that most of the developed world has no need for it; and will collectively punish it. Otherwise we are talking about 75 year old technology.
TheChildren Member	Fri Jan 10 14:50:07 pax americana ended 10-15 years ago when u lost economic, technologic, brains, cultural, moral, political lead u lot still talkin as if u r nr1, wake up. see da fires burnin in la, da country been broke 4 over a decade, them debts will always come 2 be collected one way or anotha rome baby
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 10 16:46:02 Let's see what's airing on British media this week: "John in Lancashire says his daughter was gang raped by Pakistani groomers in Oldham when only 13-years-old. "I phoned the police, a police constable told me to let it go, otherwise I'll get arrested for being racist."" http://x.com/TalkTV/status/1877053833798439081 Seb: No none of this is real, this is just a white genocide myth so we can ignore it
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 17:01:24 A small Murdoch owned streaming channel. Do you think perhaps they might simply have picked someone to air that fits the narrative they want to peddle? The latest figures we have on offences where young people reports grooming and abuse by gangs, 70% of the suspects are white. http://bsk...bsky.social/post/3lffujzbj6s23 You wouldn't know it from the media reports. Do we hear about, for example the gang in Cornwall? http://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/witches-abuse-murder-pagan-paedophile-2563685 Or the one in Walsall http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/apr/05/twenty-one-convicted-in-west-midlands-child-sexual-abuse-inquiry
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 17:05:08 The overwhelming preponderance of contemporaneous quotes and statements regarding failures by authorities to act cite issue of class and sex of the victims for not believing or downplaying. Selectively cherry picking the incidents to report and the quotes to use is very clearly attempting to politicise the issue. Making up figures "250,000" by multiplying the proportion of people in a single town by the population of the country is clearly dishonest. I can go on.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 19:16:37 The overwhelming preponderance of contemporaneous quotes and statements made by sebs preferred far left sources regarding failures by authorities to act cite issue of class and sex of the victims for not believing or downplaying. Fact checked.
murder Member	Sat Jan 11 04:55:16 "pretty easy. That's why only eleven nations in the world have missiles with a range over 1,000km." Very few nations have aspired to. Very few nations have long range bombers. Very few nations have blue water amphibious warfare capability. Very few nations ever get into a shooting war with a nation far from its borders. -
Seb Member	Sat Jan 11 05:12:44 Sam: Said sources being the victims and their representatives at the point action was taken. I rest my case: you aren't at all interested in justice for the victims. You consider them leftwing activists.
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