Utopia Talk / Politics / Trump calls Zelensky a dictator

Rugian Member	Wed Feb 19 11:12:48 Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump Think of it, a modestly successful comedian, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, talked the United States of America into spending $350 Billion Dollars, to go into a War that couldn’t be won, that never had to start, but a War that he, without the U.S. and “TRUMP,” will never be able to settle. The United States has spent $200 Billion Dollars more than Europe, and Europe’s money is guaranteed, while the United States will get nothing back. Why didn’t Sleepy Joe Biden demand Equalization, in that this War is far more important to Europe than it is to us — We have a big, beautiful Ocean as separation. On top of this, Zelenskyy admits that half of the money we sent him is “MISSING.” He refuses to have Elections, is very low in Ukrainian Polls, and the only thing he was good at was playing Biden “like a fiddle.” A Dictator without Elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he is not going to have a Country left. In the meantime, we are successfully negotiating an end to the War with Russia, something all admit only “TRUMP,” and the Trump Administration, can do. Biden never tried, Europe has failed to bring Peace, and Zelenskyy probably wants to keep the “gravy train” going. I love Ukraine, but Zelenskyy has done a terrible job, his Country is shattered, and MILLIONS have unnecessarily died – And so it continues….. Feb 19, 2025, 10:47 AM https ://truthsocial.com/@realDonaldTrump/posts/114031332924234939
Daemon Member	Wed Feb 19 11:32:21 Trump is known as a notorious liar. But this is a new low for him.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 11:32:33 Russian ally lies.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 11:35:41 All this shows is that the US would never honour Article 5 of NATO in the event of a Russian attack: instead it would lie and support Russia as the victim.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 11:37:54 Trump is just teeing up the US population for his betrayal of Europe and sell-out to Russia. They've said that are exploring economic opportunities. EU should respond with sanctions.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Feb 19 12:14:40 yeah, Trump will declare a great trade deal w/ Russia & call it a concession by his best buddy Putin (& announce the US is taking Ukraine's oil & minerals to recoup the money the anti-christian nazi dictator tricked us out of)
murder Member	Wed Feb 19 12:52:03 Hey, remember the "Russia hoax"? Remember how those silly Democrats kept trying to expose Trump as a Russian asset by pointing out all the ties between Trump, his advisors, and Russia? Good times! Fortunately Republican voters saw right through that hoax. "It's always RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA!" What a great line! Trump was such a genius hiding in plain sight. -
Dukhat Member	Wed Feb 19 12:53:14 Long rambling nonsense. Sanitized by the intern that types up his shit. Dementia Don strikes again.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Feb 19 13:16:46 Trump: "I hate to say it, but [Zelensky]'s down at a 4% approval rating" i wonder where fuckhead heard that complete lie... (Putin... it was Putin... or Trump's brain cell, given he extremely regularly makes shit up... somehow R's accept this)
Sam Adams Member	Wed Feb 19 14:23:45 Its too bad leftists went so retarded... made it a lot easier for the other side to get elected a retard of their own.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 14:38:47 Ah, US announcing 8% defence cuts year on year for the next 4 years; while China grows. Sure Sam, the problem is yes leftists, not that you hated black people, gays, and women so much you elected a guy in the pocket of Russia.
obaminated Member	Wed Feb 19 15:12:06 China is no where near the united states militarily. You are a legit brainwashed moron who still supports the military industrial complex.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Feb 19 15:18:35 No one likes black people seb. Comes from the crime. Failing to address this makes you lose elections, amongst many other things.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 15:24:04 Obaminated: Well let's see how that shapes out when in 4 years time you've shrunk your defence budget by nearly a third from now. Sam: Lol. Crime eh.... Look who you've chosen to lead you. You used to complain about minorities burning down their neighborhood. You are burning down your country instead.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Feb 19 18:04:08 "Crime eh.... Look who you've chosen to lead you." Well ya when you put retards up against eachother in an election a retard wins. I would say that trump is probably even a little less retarded than you and the other far left antisemites and anti-white racists that have taken over the left.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Feb 19 18:04:41 Russian media was happy to broadcast Trump claiming Zelensky a dictator with only 4% approval Trump being a good asset to Russia... a Russian asset one might say
Seb Member	Thu Feb 20 02:07:00 Sam: And that's why being led by Donald Trump, a criminal fool selling the US out to Russia, is an entirely natural outcome driven by Sammish behaviour and values.
Dukhat Member	Thu Feb 20 09:47:14 8% cuts to military not bad. They had the balls to do something that is actually a substantial part of our budget. We don't need like 11 carrier groups. Make it like 8. Cut the waste, invest in smarter things like cost-efficient weapons that are easy to produce.
Dukhat Member	Thu Feb 20 09:48:06 Anyways, Trump has always been Kompromat. Tulsi Gabbard going on twitter and spreading Russian propaganda is proof enough of that.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 20 15:01:49 8% *each year* for four years is what he said. That's more like cutting the whole navy.
obaminated Member	Thu Feb 20 15:08:35 Seb, 8 times 4 is 24 not 30. Cutting a military budget by a quarter (bot a thied as dumbly claimed) and we will still be outspending China dramatically. You need to understand it isn't the 80s or 90s anymore. The United States doesn't need to be the world protector. Also lol at seb math. Nearly a third instead of nearly a fourth. It does sound more dramatic when you say 3rd over a 4th doesn't it? I wonder why you chose to phrase it that way.
obaminated Member	Thu Feb 20 15:09:20 Well fuck me I had a big fail just now. And now I'm bracing for my math fail. I really need to stop posting while shitting.
Rugian Member	Thu Feb 20 15:54:48 To be fair, Seb also fucked up when he said 4 years. The proposal is for 5 years.
Rugian Member	Thu Feb 20 15:56:51 Hey remember when leftists used to cry about how the US military budget was massively bloated and far exceeded the combined budgets of all of our major allies and enemies? Now Trump is cutting the fat and Seb is complaining about that. There's no winning with these people.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Feb 20 16:32:28 we'll see if it happens Trump repeatedly bragged of -raising- military spending his first term
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 17:05:14 "Ah, US announcing 8% defence cuts year on year for the next 4 years; while China grows." The worst part is that Trump wants to increase the size of the navy ... and ships are the most expensive items on the budget. Trump likes ships because he plays with them in the tub.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 20 17:36:41 Obaminated: You don't really know how to do maths. Firstly, 8 X 4 is 32 as you've probably figured out now. Secondly that's also not the way compound percentages work. 8% cut in year 1, at end of year 1 you are 92%. 8% cut in year 2, at end of year 2 you are at 84%. Do that 2 more times, and you are at 71%. A 30% cut thereabouts. Rugian: The article I saw said "next 4 years", if it's 5 then yes that's just over a 1/3 reduction. 20, maybe even 15 years ago people thought US defence budget excessive. But now China is expanding dramatically. But my point isn't really whether it's a bad thing or a good thing. It just means US threats that it might withdraw from NATO unless we pressure Ukraine to agree to give the US all its minerals (as Finland diplomats leaked) is kinda irrelevant. The US won't have the capability as it intends to unilaterally disarm to give a tax break. The US is basically surrendering its global position.
obaminated Member	Thu Feb 20 17:40:16 Ships have a use still though. The f35 is a collasal waste of money considering advanced drones can effectively do the same things but much cheaper and without the risk of losing any American lives costing. We can maintain air superiority with drones. We can't control the seas which are far more important for a country with the pacific on one side and the Atlantic on the other with a diminished navy.
obaminated Member	Thu Feb 20 17:45:09 The US currently spends 770 billion per year on its military annually. That converts to 5.6 trillion yuan. China spends 1.7 trillion yuan annually. Go fuck yourself seb. If we cut our budget in half we are still spending double that of China and are technologically superior.
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 19:51:44 "Ships have a use still though. The f35 is a collasal waste of money considering advanced drones can effectively do the same things but much cheaper ..." Link me to these supposedly advanced cheaper drones. Hint: They don't exist except in artist renderings. In reality drones aren't very capable. "We can maintain air superiority with drones." There isn't a drone in the world that can control the skies. You have that completely backwards. In reality a chunk of US naval ships should be replaced with much cheaper drones and long range bombers. -
obaminated Member	Thu Feb 20 19:57:50 *the most advanced military drones can perform a range of complex tasks including: long-endurance surveillance over vast areas, high-precision target acquisition, autonomous threat identification, real-time data transmission, coordinated attacks with multiple drones, carrying various payloads like missiles and bombs, and even adapting to changing battlefield conditions with advanced AI capabilities, all while operating at high altitudes and remaining largely undetected by enemy radar systems" Many things humans can't do.
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 19:58:49 "China spends 1.7 trillion yuan annually." It's not a 1 for 1 comparison. China doesn't pay what we pay for labor. -
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 20:00:44 "Many things humans can't do." I asked for a link to the systems, not some texts that makes a bunch of bullshit claims.
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 20:07:50 In the real world drones fly slow and level and can't do much besides gather intelligence and bomb what they are told to bomb in uncontested environments. In contested airspace they would be the guests of honor in a turkey shoot. -
obaminated Member	Thu Feb 20 22:10:58 Your ignorance of modern tech is endearing.
jergul large member	Thu Feb 20 22:15:00 Murder China does not pay what you do for anything. I would actually bet that labour costs per unit are closer to the US than anything else. Say for example a 155mm shell.
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 22:44:44 "Your ignorance of modern tech is endearing." Link or stfu rube!
murder Member	Thu Feb 20 22:46:49 "China does not pay what you do for anything. I would actually bet that labour costs per unit are closer to the US than anything else. Say for example a 155mm shell." Seeing as how the government owns everything and can just take what it wants if it doesn't own it, yeah, I'm sure everything comes at a discount.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 04:55:21 Obaminated: I guess your understanding of purchasing power parity is as good as your maths. There's a reason that so much of us manufacturing outsourced to China, and it's because equivalent labour is a lot cheaper. Basically your dollar nominal equivalent bus a lot more bang in China than in the US. US has technological edge. But then so did the NAZIs* but quantity is a quality all of its own. * (in some areas, it's more complex in detail but the principle is the same)
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 04:58:56 Murder: Costs not prices. Obliviously even worse when you are paying a margin to shareholders at each stage of the supply chain (which is what jergul was getting at with his 155 shell I think).
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 05:14:34 Obaminated: In terms of current generation, murder is right. Loyal wingmen drones are designed to be expendable, not survivable. A force multiplier for a guy in an f-35, not a replacement of. Fully autonomous air supremacy drones don't exist yet. Remote ones do, but that's probably not going to work out well due to electronic warfare and latency. When fully autonomous ones do, they will likely outperform piloted ones. But they probably aren't going to be much cheaper than piloted units in terms of walkaway costs. You'll save on pilot personnel and training, not capital outlay and servicing costs. But ground crew, specialists, capex and technical services dominate over the pilots and their training so... no you aren't going to get 30% savings from automation, and not in 4 or 5 years. This is a plan for unilateral disarmament, sold to rubes with magical thinking. The US west coast oligarchs believe their accelerationist religion crap, and that's what they are pushing here, and to them we are now entering the end-game. You ought to be quite worried because their basic ideas are not so far away from CCs imagined "great replacement" - the current thinking in those circles is there are too many people who have no purpose once AI automates everything and just represent a cost - the difference is they don't plan to replace them. By "too many" they do not mean "black people in Africa", they mean all the "NPCs" in America too, which basically means anyone not directly involved in their world with some degree of agency (i.e. capital, or executive level evils). It's essentially the thinking of early medieval aristocrats, if they could conjure Golems to do all the tedious shit the peasants and yeomen do so they can retain 90% rather than 10% (the other 10% goes to them but is used to keep the Golems running).
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 05:16:14 You think this is all bonkers, it *is* bonkers, if you've been keeping up with these guys, that's what they think and talk about for the last decade or so.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 05:22:05 TL:Dr though - they do not get great power politics at all. They think business is a good model and it's not because it exists in a framework of laws; and while they think that because they are pretty good at regulatory capture and ignoring laws they don't like, that's the same environment as great power politics. Their idea is that if they can stay ahead of China just a little longer, instantiate smart enough AI shead of China, exponential explosion of intelligence and output means nobody can ever catch up and they can lock in capital accumulation forever. Unfortunately they don't understand that global financial and trade systems are fragile postwar constructs based on the system they are busy ripping up. I'm pretty sure we are going to wind up with some kind of world war in the next decade or so.
Forwyn Member	Fri Feb 21 09:51:16 The same people who call Trump a dictator handwave Zelensky's militias shooting fleeing civilians, assassinating political opponents, clamping down on free speech, and delaying elections. lol.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 10:41:19 Forwyn: Because that is total nonsense. Tell me which countries have ever held elections in the middle of an ongoing invasion? Is Russia going to *not* bomb the polling stations and then claim UAF did it? Are the troops going to get to hop back to their polling stations? Will the occupied territories get to vote? I guess we can totally trust Russia to do the polling. What about the refugees, they are going to come home? LOL. No. It's terrible practice to conduct an election under these kinds of conditions. Western countries under these circumstances defer elections until after the end of the war. This is just sad repetition of Russian Talking points seeking to delegitimise Ukraine. You clearly have no self-respect at all to repeat such garbage that you must surely know to be garbage.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 10:42:25 I genuinely find it sad that people are so desperate to align to their ingroup and leader they will spout the most obvious nonsense for fear of breaking ranks. Truly broken spirits.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Feb 21 10:43:34 Seb gets butthurt about trump abandoning the ukraine while he abandons israel. Odd.
Rugian Member	Fri Feb 21 10:59:42 Not just abandoned Israel - he claimed it was their fault they got attacked and demanded full and immediate capitulation to the enemy. Hmmm...sounds familiar.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 11:41:29 Israel isn't abandoned. Israel has had everything handed to it on a plate, it's been allowed to slaughter the Palestinians and defang Hezbollah and kick Iran out of Syria. It's done so with UK backing I might add if you track military flights. And the US isn't demanding half of all of Israel's subsoil, transport and power, infrastructure revenues with a lein in favour of the US.
Forwyn Member	Fri Feb 21 11:41:31 "Will the occupied territories get to vote?" They already did. They voted to leave. ...and then the fresh coup government spent years bombing them for their audacity. Interesting that you chose 1/4 to rant about though. LOL
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 11:41:59 Rugian: Why lie to yourself about this?
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 12:02:37 Forwyn: Kherson didn't. Zhaphorisa didn't. Even the Donetsk and Luhansk "elections" were conducted under Russian guns. You know this. Why would you seriously come here with such nonsense?
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 12:03:57 don't you have any kind of embarrassment at sitting here, insisting the moon is made of cheese because El Presidente has decreed it so? It's genuinely pitiful.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 12:03:58 don't you have any kind of embarrassment at sitting here, insisting the moon is made of cheese because El Presidente has decreed it so? It's genuinely pitiful.
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 12:04:27 He's not in the room you know, you don't have to abase yourself so.
Forwyn Member	Fri Feb 21 12:29:29 Leave it to a Brit to cry that any self-determination elections are invalid. Coups are valid, if supported by the West! Their elections are always valid, if and when they have them. The response to cries about these elections, as a fresh-coup government, should be to promptly start bombing the regions. Spanish government be like: "If we throw enough voters down stairs, we can call the results invalid due to low turnout" Also classic Seb, pretending I haven't been consistent on this since long before Trump. Lol.
obaminated Member	Fri Feb 21 13:23:46 "China doesn't pay as much because they have cheap labor and in no way does that hurt them" seb/murder
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 15:40:24 Coups? Really? That's what you are going with?
Seb Member	Fri Feb 21 15:46:28 Obaminated: They have a bigger navy than you and you are about to cut your defence spending by a third over the next 5 years. Building stuff cheaper as at higher volumes than Europe is how you won WW2. Every recent conflict has shown how cheap consumer shit that the China excels at ruins high end armies. And they regularly do these big high tech displays with 1000+ drone swarms. Do you not see the issue here? Are you thick or something?
Forwyn Member	Fri Feb 21 16:12:35 "Coups". It fits the definition. Certainly moreso than 1/6.
obaminated Member	Fri Feb 21 19:10:35 "I have more shit quality ships than you, therefore my navy is better" - seb logic
murder Member	Fri Feb 21 19:56:31 "In terms of current generation, murder is right. Loyal wingmen drones are designed to be expendable, not survivable. A force multiplier for a guy in an f-35, not a replacement of." Seb: The loyal wingman program is never going to come to fruition. It will end up one more cancelled program. In order to be attritable, a drone has to be cheap, small, slow, and non-stealthy. A small drone would have a small payload and limited range. A slow drone wouldn't be able to keep up with a manned fighter. Non-stealthy drones would give away the position of the manned fighter and would be easy targets for air defenses in a contested space. Trying to find a sweet spot of affordability, survivability, useful range, useful payload, and sufficient speed to keep up with F-35s is not going to result in an attritable drone, let alone one that is cheap. You'd just end up with a bunch of miniature stealth bombers. You'd end up with something like this ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B
murder Member	Fri Feb 21 20:08:43 Also it should go without saying that aircraft of any significant cost and complexity will never be "attritable" for the simply reason that it takes a long time to replace any loses. You can't crank out fighter/bombers at the same rate that you can crank out cruise missiles ... and even cruise missiles can't be replenished immediately. Production rates are what they are, and they don't surge easily. -
jergul large member	Fri Feb 21 21:13:47 Seb Not so simple. Chinese production and assembly line production is as a rule significantly better than US equivalents. I would estimate that is true for about 90% in value of what is mass produced. China is playing catchup only in areas like chipset wafers and stuff like that. Micron tolerances. But with China dominating with any larger tolerance.
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 01:23:06 Obaminated: Cf. Panzer V Vs Sherman.
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 01:38:38 Murder: The concept is broader than your particular program. I think it's daft to say it won't come to fruition. Aussies already have a demonstrator. The idea of having a search and targeting radar on a separate platform with a big of missiles is very achievable. Taking out the pilot makes it smaller. Slower isn't necessarily a problem either: you just send the drones earlier. Yes they are stealthy that's the idea. Loyal wingmen is really just about getting the "first shot" in without revealing your manned fighters. S/DEAD and getting rid of enemy fighters. Jergul: Yes, I have argued this point before. Cf. US in WW2. But in military terms those wafers etc. count. One thing to have a production line that can turn out more missiles without compromising QA metrics matters (cf. Russia's issues with NorK shells and their own missiles, though the latter is probably more about corruption). Another thing to just have better radar and targeting. Point is, in a protracted war of the kind Ukraine has turned out to be; China would have the edge. The US needs to leverage what qualitative edge it has to achieve overwhelming victory quickly, otherwise it will eventually lose or stagnate like Russia has. It's an inherently more vulnerable position and why the US needs allies. Unfortunately it is busy driving its allies away through demonstrating it's unreliability and propensity to extortion.
obaminated Member	Sat Feb 22 02:19:40 Seb is acting like a teenager who is told by his or her or them parents that they need to start paying their phone bills.
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 02:30:33 seb You do grasp the inevitable aspect of what is play out? I have warned against it since 2001.
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 02:30:53 playing*
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 03:29:10 Jergul: I disagree. This is the inevitable consequence of coddling Russia for far too long.
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 03:33:38 "If only we had been more Westphalian and let Russia dominate Eastern Europe through a mixture of thuggery, bribes and the occasional assassination, we'd be so much better off" is a heck of a take.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Feb 22 06:46:52 On one side you have a person who has consistently been clear and firm about the enemies of Europe, foreign and domestic, even when pointing it out nominally incriminated him. On the other side you have a Russian educated socialist who has been siding with the enemies of Europe, from Russia to the Islamic republic, at every turn. Which one do you want in the foxhole next to you seb? It's a trick question I would shoot you both :)
williamthebastard Member	Sat Feb 22 09:01:02 I see part of the USA's "negotiation" tactic, or blackmailing a country that has been invaded by a country that has brutally slaughtered tens of thousands of their people is to threaten to shut down starlink. Always nice to be dealing with autistic psychopaths
williamthebastard Member	Sat Feb 22 09:01:38 autistic psychopaths on ketamine
Rugian Member	Sat Feb 22 09:03:39 President Trump lashed out at Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Friday, saying he did not think it was important for Zelensky to attend negotiations about the war in Ukraine. Trump acknowledged in a Fox News Radio interview with Brian Kilmeade that Russia attacked Ukraine but still suggested former President Biden and Zelensky shared blame for failing to talk down Moscow. “I’ve been watching for years, and I’ve been watching him negotiate with no cards,” Trump said of Zelensky. “He has no cards. And you get sick of it.” “So, I don’t think he’s very important to be at meetings, to be honest with you,” Trump added. “He makes it very hard to make deals.” Trump suggested Russian President Vladimir Putin wanted to reach a deal to end the war in Ukraine. He claimed Putin did not necessarily have to negotiate a ceasefire, because if he wanted, he’d get “the whole country.” After the Kilmeade interview, Trump again chided Ukraine during remarks to a bipartisan group of governors at the White House. “I’ve had very good talks with Putin,” he said, and “not such good talks with Ukraine.” http://the...rump-zelensky-russia-meetings/ ROFL cry libs
murder Member	Sat Feb 22 09:47:54 "Slower isn't necessarily a problem either: you just send the drones earlier." It's a big problem when you're trying to evade missiles. "Yes they are stealthy that's the idea." Stealth isn't cheap, and cheap is the idea. "The idea of having a search and targeting radar on a separate platform with a big of missiles is very achievable." I'm not sure what you mean by that, but it doesn't matter what you can put on a separate platform. What matters is that it be cheap and effective. Aussie demonstrators aside, it's 2025 and there are exactly zero drones in the world that are survivable in a contested environment, and can deliver a significant payload over long distances, and are cheap and readily available enough where losing a few is no big deal. This program will be cancelled, just like the NGAD program. Diminishing returns for the cost will kill the NGAD program. Someone figuring out that it's much cheaper to mass produce stealthy cruise missiles will kill the loyal wingman program.
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 10:18:59 Cutie, you would probably want to opt for the one with military training. Remind me. When did you serve? <3. Seb I am unsure why you think Westphalia is imcompatible with supporting Ukraine. Something we are doing and I think we should continue doing with as much as we can until the inevitable collapse of the Ukrainian armed forces. But the fracture we have seen in the West is something I have been pretty sure of for decades. We have been played and are in a very vulnerable position right now. American first is quite correctly by its logic, trying to establish a relationship with Russia that alows the US to use Russia to constrain two global competitors for the price of none. Poor canada. It is now sandwiched between two unaligned powers and it is holding the very desirable keys to the arctic.
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 10:23:12 To be clear, that was not a martial pissing context cutie. But one of us knows how to keep you feet dry while trying to sleep in piss and mud as shell plop down around that proverbial trench you mentioned. Most of the rest have no clue. So, yah, who would you want there?
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 10:23:51 <3
obaminated Member	Sat Feb 22 12:00:48 He has a point. Ukraine has no cards to play. They are defeated and being propped up by euros who don't care that they are losing and dying and have zero chance of winning.
williamthebastard Member	Sat Feb 22 12:04:29 He has a point. The rape victim being raped by an armed rapist has no cards to play. She is being raped and propped up by the belief of people that believe rape is wrong even though she ca nt fight off the rapist. - IAmCompletelySickAndEvilTardo
williamthebastard Member	Sat Feb 22 12:06:36 Look, any smart person realizes that if a girl is getting raped and she cant fight off the rapist with a knife to her throat, she should make a deal. Ok, you can rape me as long as you dont slit my throat while youre coming - IAmCompletelySickAndEvilTardo
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 12:09:20 Murder: "It's a big problem when you're trying to evade missiles." The idea is the enemy don't see the f35s which are 100km back. They can't target (but can probably know it's there) the loyal wingman until it's radar and missile launch. The loyal wingman might get destroyed but it doesn't matter. The F-35s then have a decisive advantage. The idea isn't so much "cheap", it's that your pilots and manned units survive, whereas they wouldn't, despite stealth, if they engage the enemy directly when they turn on their targeting radars and launch their missiles against a peer competitor access denial. This is a powerful deterrent against attacking such a bubble: it inevitably means quite high attrition rates of pilots which is politically unacceptable. Losing a hundred million in loyal wingman drones is acceptable.
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 12:11:12 "Someone figuring out that it's much cheaper to mass produce stealthy cruise missiles" That's another strategy, but I think you'll probably need a guy in the loop locally to attack access denial bubbles for various reasons.
Seb Member	Sat Feb 22 12:13:47 Jergul: "American first is quite correctly by its logic, trying to establish a relationship with Russia that alows the US to use Russia to constrain two global competitors for the price of none" Nah, that's bollocks. The result of screwing Europe so comprehensively and weaponising every dependency is to create a real rival that is more likely than not to collaborate with China than the US.
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 12:24:31 You have way more faith in Europe than I think is warranted. Take an obvious response. Do you think the UK will submit a EU application, or that the EU will finally let in Turkey? A Europe first plan would actually need to cozy up to Russia anyway. Cheap energy is needed to avoid deindustrialization.
jergul large member	Sat Feb 22 12:26:29 I think the US will succeed in keeping us contained by using Russia. The containing China iss way less certain, but normalized US-Russian relations are troublesome enough in potential to curb more outlandish of Chinese moves.
murder Member	Sat Feb 22 12:37:49 "The loyal wingman might get destroyed but it doesn't matter." Of course it matters, Seb. That would reduce the size of our air force. It would take years to build the force back up. "The F-35s then have a decisive advantage." Do you know what would give the F-35s a decisive advantage? Having twice as many of them instead of wasting that money buying clay pigeons for enemy SAMs. "They can't target (but can probably know it's there) the loyal wingman until it's radar and missile launch." I know you are writing this in English, but I'm having a hard time understanding what you're saying. You expect the drones to fly ahead with their radars off while relying on the F-35 which would be 100km back to find targets for them? I don't see how that would work. If the enemy also has stealth fighters, then they would be able to find and target our blind drones before we could target them. And while their fighters could evade our missiles, our drones would get wrecked pretty easily since all they could do is dump decoys and flares.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Feb 23 09:32:50 I have to say I an quite surprised at how retarded and weak Trump is in this. The deal he is willing to accept, is basically what happened in Afghanistan. Just that nobody actually made a deal with the Taliban. Making this worse than Afghanistan. All his admin’s criticism of Europe and the retards in charge here was spot on 100%, but then he completely fucks up the Ukraine front.
Seb Member	Sun Feb 23 12:20:19 Jergul: No, but neither of those things seems a wholly sensible immediate response to the current situation. I can do a separate thread on EU/UK - but it is clear that in the short term Slovakia and Hungary make the EU a very poor institution for a new European security architecture hence the new format that Macrons been working on this last week. That said there are some marked shifts in UK politics off the back of the last week, but it is fair to say that HMG is at the moment going to continue to treat "manage trump" as plan A. What I think we will see though is probably some kind of mutual debt to fund re-armament within the EU; Merz seems pretty serious on European nuclear umbrella. But you are making a mistake to think this is some grand strategy going on in the US. These guys are idiots, that's all. Murder: The way the wargames shake out, you are going to lose some unprecedentedly high proportion of the first wave of attacks if you have to fight against a peer or near peer access denial bubble: stealth fighters are vulnerable when using their targeting radars and launching missiles. The question is do you want those jets to be manned, or unmanned? Manned is what makes a mission far more risky for a president, than unmanned. It matters, but not so much. Losing potentially scores of pilots to defend Taiwan (not that this guy is going to do that) is a different proposition to losing scores of drones. Plus, they can and are cheaper than F-35s or F-22s - not "disposable" cheap, but expendable / atritable doesn't mean they are throwaways; it means the loses can be tolerated rather than irrelevant. "their radars off" Their targeting radars off. Targeting radars are the big problem. Yes, the F-35s rendezvous at the edge of the bubble to be closer, but still not that close. "If the enemy also has stealth fighters, then they would be able to find and target our blind drones before we could target them" Hard to find without airborne search radar, and they'd be operating at the edge of their engagement envelope, and as soon as they turn on their targeting radars then the drones will pick them up with passive sensors; and the F35's that are acting as mini-awacs at that point have the drones switch on their targeting radars and launch *their* missiles. The enemy aren't going to destroy all the drones immediately and simultaneously. In which case: success they are getting into a missile exchange with drones, whose losses are acceptable, not manned F35s and F22s that are not. They exchanged their manned stealth fighters for some high-end, fairly expensive, but ultimately acceptable losses of drones. Basically, think of it more like how you use to have picket ships as the outermost ring of a fleet.
Seb Member	Sun Feb 23 12:24:37 Basically, the idea is to force the enemy to reveal themselves (ground based systems or aircraft) to tackle drones; and when you are forced to reveal yourself, reveal drones first and force the enemy to reveal themselves to engage the drones. It's not that hard a concept - but you are right it is not financially cheaper per-se; it's about mitigating political risk from unacceptably high-body bags. I also do reckon in time that we will wind up with fully autonomous air combat drones at some point.
jergul large member	Sun Feb 23 12:35:05 Seb The immediate threat is divide and conquer tariff fights. The instinct should be to consolidate close partners. Also longer term. Ukraine in EU is going to be hideously expensive. More shoulders to carry that burden and the debt financed burden of funding Ukraine now. On loyal wingman. Russia uses it as a payload extender. Its one of the things with stealth. Internal bays instead of hardpoints dramatically limit payloads.
Seb Member	Sun Feb 23 14:40:02 Jergul: The responses between the UK and the EU will be different by nature. The UK cannot right now take a conformational response to Trump. We are in the middle of renewing the deterrent - the dreadnaughts missile compartments are designed and built for trident, too narrow for M51s and we are mid warhead renewal- and he can spanner that up in a way that would be near impossible for the UK to address. Secondly he can badly disrupt UK intelligence. We are so operationally interdependent that this will have a huge negative impact on the US (they are better placed to recover) but going by what he's doing, he won't care. Both of these substantially weaken our ability to unilaterally support Europe in the short term. The UK is better paying lip service and tying to pursue European agenda in the short term, while pursuing disengagement longer term. This also means we are likely to come off worse on Tarrifs: Trump & Musk hate starmer, and Trump is leaving the UK to last to fuck us I think. As for solidarity, that would require a policy shift in the EU that isn't there yet. The EU and MS have gone out of the way to demonstrate the UK cannot rely on European countries acting in solidarity to the UK. And we have little to add to the EU leverage when it comes to trade wars. Could we pivot to rejoin the EU? Polls are certainly moving in the right direction but we aren't there yet. Even assuming the internal politics could be resolved right now and a demonstrable, enduring commitment demonstrated (the risk of another Hungary... I don't think we are there yet, really you'd be the Tories to recover and accept Brexit failed and in the current epoch needs to be part of a block, the EU being the only option); there's the EU side to think about. The UK rejoining would be good for the UK overall, but bad for various interests - so a big headache distracting from internal stuff needed to make the EU work to face the current crisis. Further there's complications like the fact the UK doesn't meet the accession criteria in a range of areas. A quick return to the EU isn't on the cards, much as I'd like. Alignment is the best we can hope for in the short term; hence Starmer's more limited reset. The SPS deal should probably help people realise that "regulatory sovereignty" is a silly thing to pursue and the dreaded ECJ jurisdiction just means fresher food in the supermarket. Baby steps. So what does the short term look like: The EU should pursue a robust approach to economic and military autonomy from the US. On the economic front from what I hear they are deadly serious about the anti-coercion measures if Trump imposes Tarrifs that are linked to policy changes. I think they've heard from Trudeau that threats work. So I suspect they will go aggressively on Tech. I've been introducing some of my EU based friends plugged into commission policy making (on their request - my friends that is) to Cory Doctrows stuff. In terms of policy the first step will be finding some way to borrow huge and cheap to fund weapons production, key military capability (C&C, ISR, airlift), and the size of military forces. The use of seized Russian assets to capitalise a re-armament bank has some backing. The UK can play a role here, and if the EU can find creative ways to include the UK, some kind of SM/Customs union for military kit that would be a good idea. Having the UK and other EU NATO members into Galileo and ISIS would also be a good idea. I'm optimistic. EU based friends plugged into European policy making say political capital is sloshing around right now and everything is on the table. Look say Merz statements today. This is a formerly staunch atlantacist taking a position CdG would have taken. Europe is *pissed* with the US, not just Trump. More ambitious, less likely: if Germany wants to do nuclear sharing as Merz says, there's options there too. Funding france or the UK to develop tactical GLCM or IRBM weapons that could be deployed along the lines of NATOs locally controlled weapons would be an interesting idea. Unthinkable a while ago. Oh and we should fold FCAP programs together. Crazy to be developing two fighter programs. I'd go with the Anglo-Jap one (further ahead, moving faster, more likely to keep the Japanese in). But that feels very secondary to artillery and drones. The likely roadblocks here will be "who leads". To get the scale, mass and equivalency of the US there needs to be a lot more willingness to trade sovereign capabilities for a federal model. We effectively do this at the moment with the US because they have it. That's different from everyone e.g. funding strategic enablers that are defacto under the French govts control. Genuine autonomy will require sorting that out. But I think that's probably going to happen. People had already noted the Biden admins willingness to block out geofence US weapons sold to Europe; Trumps outright extortion has put a rocket up everyone.
Seb Member	Sun Feb 23 14:45:35 RE the current Ukraine crisis exactly what happens depends on the German elections, whether Zekelensky or Trump blink, and which way Turkey jumps if a coalition to continue to unilaterally support Ukraine without the US emerges.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Feb 23 15:48:02 Turkey? Turkey? Lolwut.
jergul large member	Sun Feb 23 16:16:27 Turkish hardware is untapped Sammy. As opposed to the West.
Seb Member	Sun Feb 23 16:20:34 Sam: Maybe you need to look at a map.
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