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Utopia Talk / Politics / The "insurrection" becomes "trespassing"
Rugian
Member
Wed Mar 31 06:29:23
Surprise! The histrionic portrayal of January 6 as an "insurrection" and "sedition" immediately fell apart the moment the cases went up before the judiciary.

"Many Capitol rioters unlikely to serve jail time

The cases could embarrass the Biden administration, which has portrayed the Jan. 6 siege as a dire threat to democracy."

http://www...-capitol-riot-jail-time-478440
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 31 12:29:12
doesn't mean much, it's about what you can prove in court

the ones bashing police at the gates or trashing offices would be harder to identify than the ones posting selfies once they seized the Capitol & anyone could get in (a ridiculous thing to have been allowed to happen... the doorways & windows should've been clogged w/ cultist corpses)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 31 12:45:43
seems like kind of a stupid assessment in that article

"almost a quarter of the more than 230 defendants formally and publicly charged so far face only misdemeanors"

so over 75% face felonies? that's an embarrassment to Biden?

seems like an embarrassment to the "zero threat" Fraud guy, who is entirely responsible for their presence & beliefs...
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Mar 31 13:03:41
Ok, but legally, OJ isn’t a murderer.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 31 13:27:59
well to correct Rugian's misleading title, they aren't changing insurrection to trespassing

unsurprisingly -some- of them only charged w/ trespassing (if already 170+ charged w/ felonies as they suggest by the excerpt i quoted, that seems more notable to me)


another retarded statement later:
"The prospect of dozens of Jan. 6 rioters cutting deals for minor sentences could be hard to explain for the Biden administration, which has characterized the Capitol Hill mob as a uniquely dangerous threat."

not hard to explain at all, & doesn't make the heaps of others not a threat
Rugian
Member
Wed Mar 31 13:50:27
Tw

Insurrection and seditious are chargeable crimes under federal law.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/part-I/chapter-115

If January 6 was actually an event of insurrection, one would think that prosecutors would charge accordingly.

The reality is that January 6 was simply a larger-than-normal protest that became a riot when a few people turned violent. There was no plot to overthrow the government, and the charges filed so far indicate exactly that.
jergul
large member
Wed Mar 31 14:46:38
What is your logic Ruggy?

Violent regime change is only a crime if it succeeds?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 31 14:56:49
the article doesn't say no one being charged w/ insurrection or sedition

the seemingly stupid article is claiming only that not everyone arrested is being charged w/ a serious crime (as would be expected)... thus embarrassing for Biden?...


"
According to the statutory definition of sedition, it is a crime for two or more people within the jurisdiction of the United States:

• To conspire to overthrow or destroy by force the government of the United States or to level war against them;
• To oppose by force the authority of the United States government; to prevent, hinder, or delay by force the execution of any law of the United States; or
• To take, seize, or possess by force any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof.
"

yeah, 2 & 3 factually happened (& those are 'or's not 'and's)... w/ #2 being Trump's specific intent (otherwise why is he noting Pence failed them... & repeatedly implying the election outcome could be changed if only that particular voting that day prevented)

so sedition was committed, Trump probably won't get hit w/ it since he didn't actually join the mob (as he told them he was doing)... but he -should- be charged in a just world by the Charles Manson principle, he's definitely who led to the misinformed & angry mob (as even Mitch agrees)
Rugian
Member
Wed Mar 31 15:08:50
Jergul

Quite the opposite. Attempting violent regime change is only a crime if you lose...if you win, it's not.

Point is January 6 wasn't such an attempt.
Rugian
Member
Wed Mar 31 15:28:27
Tw

There's been a bunch of destruction of property and disorderly charges thrown around....not insurrection/sedition.

Prosecutors normally overcharge defendents to pressure them into pleading guilty to lesser charges. The fact that they aren't even bothering to overcharge insurrection/sedition says that they have zero faith that those would ever stick.

And no, marching around in the Rotunda as an act of protest isn't "sedition," thats just ridiculous...

By your standard, would this be considered "sedition?"

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zeLDmITyAG0

How about this one?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBmvcU5LF8A
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 31 16:41:16
"to prevent, hinder, or delay by force the execution of any law of the United States"

this happened... in session congress fled for their lives...

"To take, seize, or possess by force any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof"

this happened too

------------

for starters, no force in either of your examples, so both fail easily

-if- no one gets charged with sedition, it isn't because they didn't commit it, it's pity being taken on them for being fooled by a conman
Habebe
Member
Wed Mar 31 21:26:59
OR more realistically the actions do not meet the legal requirements to be called as such.

I said before when everyone was up in arms over the last going to Mexico with her job being allowed to go.

She was charged with bottom of the barrel crimes.Like disorderly conduct ( citations , lower than a misdemeanor) some sort of low level trespassing.

Slaps on the wrist.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 31 21:42:58
i've quoted the legal requirements twice

& it's self-evident they are met

again:
"
• To oppose by force the authority of the United States government; to prevent, hinder, or delay by force the execution of any law of the United States; or

• To take, seize, or possess by force any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof.
"

both of those factually occurred (& you don't need both, either one is enough)

& you obviously add judgment in deciding on charging, but these aren't minor violations of those, they are gross violations
obaminated
Member
Thu Apr 01 20:18:14
Tw, it wasnt an insurrection. No matter how desperately you want it to be. It wasnt.
kargen
Member
Thu Apr 01 21:30:42
The siege on the federal building in Portland was much more an insurrection than what happened at the Capitol Building. People involved with either should face the consequences of their crimes.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Apr 01 22:16:21
you know the problem with you two being constantly misinformed by your sources (thinking the capitol insurrection was nothing & that no Portland/BLM/Antifa rioters got arrested) is you get this:

http://twitter.com/bad_takes/status/1375251130586963968

^some guy saying his/your side will indeed pick fascists to lead as his/your side supposedly all being treated like criminals whereas the left doesn't have to obey the laws... & Tucker agreeing

a similar message pushed by your cult leader... that these seditionist "patriots" being "persecuted" while claiming nothing happens to BLM rioters

that isn't actually happening but you two prove that that is what is being brainwashed into millions

go put on Antifa or BLM gear and hit a cop w/ a hockey stick, see how it works out
obaminated
Member
Thu Apr 01 22:43:57
you are a fucking moron. "your side" literally cordoned off a section of a major city, declaring they owned it and banned authorities from entering it while people got murdered. Your side did that, you fucking idiot.
obaminated
Member
Thu Apr 01 22:45:31
i honestly do not know why or how people like TW and Cuckhat exist in a society. social welfare must keep them above water because their mindset would make them a clear net negative to anything community that housed them.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Apr 01 23:58:15
CHAZ - established June 8

first shooting - June 20th... of a teenage black rapper... so not like it was rampant violence going on, people sat around & did art things

& to blow your mind, the # of buildings burned: 0
Wrath of Orion
Member
Fri Apr 02 00:28:15
A retarded alcoholic ranting about others being a drain on society. Now that's some funny shit.
Y2A
Member
Fri Apr 02 00:31:59
"A retarded alcoholic ranting about others being a drain on society. Now that's some funny shit."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Apr 20 03:55:01
Big yikes for the "DEADLY!" Capitol "INSURRECTION!" narrative:

"Medical ruling: Capitol cop Sicknick died of natural causes"
[AP News; April 19th, 2021]
http://apn...97800805aedae48b72bc4837b90042
"Investigators initially believed the officer was hit in the head with a fire extinguisher, based on statements collected early in the investigation, according to two people familiar with the case. And they later thought the 42-year-old Sicknick may have ingested a chemical substance — possibly bear spray — that may have contributed to his death.

"But the determination of a natural cause of death means the medical examiner found that a medical condition alone caused his death — it was not brought on by an injury. The determination is likely to significantly inhibit the ability of federal prosecutors to bring homicide charges in Sicknick’s death."

..
So the Capitol protest was "Deadly" now entirely because 14-year Air Force veteran Ashli Babbitt was shot by Capitol Police while scaling a barrier. All other "deadly" aspects were due to natural causes.
Rugian
Member
Tue Apr 20 08:32:36
I'm sure the media will apologize for spending days on end acting like Sicknick was killed by rabid MAGAists who bashed his brains in with a fire extinguisher.

Trump's impeachment charge claimed that he got officers killed. This may be the first impeachment that was based on a flat out lie.

Rugian
Member
Tue Apr 20 08:35:16
"So the Capitol protest was "Deadly" now entirely because 14-year Air Force veteran Ashli Babbitt was shot by Capitol Police while scaling a barrier."

Yep. The only person who was killed that day was an unarmed woman who was shot by a police officer on the other side of a door.

AKA the one police shooting in this country that the left has zero problems with.
Paramount
Member
Tue Apr 20 09:12:28
They say he died of a stroke. But it is likely that the blow to his head and the bear spray set off the stroke. If none of that had happened he would still be alive today.
Habebe
Member
Tue Apr 20 09:33:29
Paramount, Maybe the blow, I doubt bear spray played any role a day later.

The blow may or may not have damaged something internally playing a role.

From what I understand the coroner said it didn't....but I tend to be skeptical of experts, especially if its only one report.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Tue Apr 20 10:08:22
"but I tend to be skeptical of experts"

A healthy skepticism is not a bad thing, but you are allergic to facts, Retard Rod 2.0. That's not something of which you should be proud.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Apr 20 11:20:00
> thrombosis

Ah shit, another Covid death
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 20 12:17:21
I don’t recall “deadly” being that critical... also there was the woman trampled to death so still “deadly”

it was a violent insurrection, people were relying on video proof not whether one cop died or not to determine if wrong somehow... and cops weren’t the targets so who knows what various cultists would’ve done to various members of Congress especially in their mob mentality... they supposedly are pro-cop but didn’t mind bashing the hell out of them
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 20 12:31:26
"Between USCP and our colleagues at the Metropolitan Police Department, we have almost 140 officers injured," union chairman Gus Papathanasiou said in a statement released Wednesday. "I have officers who were not issued helmets prior to the attack who have sustained brain injuries. One officer has two cracked ribs and two smashed spinal discs. One officer is going to lose his eye, and another was stabbed with a metal fence stake."


...but the one cop who died may not be from the rioters so that changes everything...
Rugian
Member
Tue Apr 20 13:57:13
"More than 2,000 law enforcement officers were injured in the first weeks of protests over the summer following the police killing of George Floyd, according to a report released in October.

The Major Cities Chiefs Association, a professional association comprised of local law enforcement heads from the 69 largest police agencies in the United States and nine in Canada, detailed the unrest and compiled data from protests between May 25 and July 31 in MCCA member cities.

During that period, there were 8,700 protests nationwide; 574 were declared riots with violence and other criminal acts. The violence was limited to 7% of protests, the report said."

^The media and Democrats did that. 2,000 police officers injured by BLM and Antifa.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 20 16:22:34
"The violence was limited to 7% of protests, the report said."

so 'mostly peaceful' then...


2000 officers/574 riots = ~4 officers injured per riot

Trump riot = ~140 officers injured
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Apr 20 21:05:01
[Paramount]: "But it is likely that the blow to his head and the bear spray set off the stroke. If none of that had happened he would still be alive today."
[Habebe]: "Paramount, Maybe the blow, I doubt bear spray played any role a day later."

It's a good thing that "the blow to his head" never happened then. People erroneously connected a protestor holding a fire extinguisher to the death of Officer Sicknick. That was a media misinformation note which was quietly corrected by the outlets that spread it.

..
[tw]: "I don’t recall “deadly” being that critical..."

Some sample headlines:
• [Politico, March 26th]: "Trump: Rioters in deadly Capitol insurrection posed ‘zero threat’
The former president’s remarks represent perhaps his most serious distortion yet of the events of Jan. 6."
• [U.S. News, January 8th]: "DOJ: 13 Charged in Federal Court in Connection to Deadly Capitol Insurrection"
• [CNN, January 14th]: "One week after the deadly insurrection at the Capitol"
• [CNBC, February 15th]: "Pelosi announces independent 9/11-style commission on deadly Capitol riot"
• [NPR, January 26t]: "The Department of Justice said it would spare no resource to bring to justice those responsible for the deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol."
• [APNews, January 9th]: "EXPLAINER: Who has been charged in the deadly Capitol riot?"
• [AlJazeera, January 9th]: "Timeline: The deadly Capitol Hill riots"
• [Independent UK, February 14th]: "Lawmakers call for 9/11-style commission over deadly Capitol insurrection"
• [The Guardian, January 13th]: "House poised to impeach Trump for a second time, following deadly Capitol riot"
• [BuzzFeedNews, February 13th]: "McConnell Said Trump Is Responsible For The Deadly Capitol Insurrection Minutes After Voting Not Guilty" (FYI, McConnell never used the words "insurrection" or "deadly" in his speech)
• [CBS News, January 14th]: "What was social media's role in the deadly Capitol assault?"
• [Forbes, January 20th,]: "Pelosi Says Trump Could Be Accessory To Murder After Deadly Capitol Attack"

This in addition to the scores of minor news outlets that repeated the same narrative and in addition to the repeats of these phrasings by the above outlets. You have to appreciate the partial integrity of those that tried not to use the word "insurrection" but still said, "deadly".

..
[tw]: "also there was the woman trampled to death so still “deadly”"

Not as it turns out.. Boyland was assumed to have been trampled due to fragmented images, guesses about her position in the crowd, and a bloody nose; but that was not the official cause of death.

The five Capitol deaths:
• Officer Sicknick — natural causes / stroke
• Ashli Babbitt — shot by Capitol Police
• Kevin Greeson — "was standing in a throng of fellow Trump loyalists on the west side of the Capitol when he suffered a heart attack and fell to the sidewall"[1]
• Benjamin Philips — "Mr. Philips died of a stroke in Washington"[1]
• Rosanne Boyland — "The medical examiner ruled that Rosanne Boyland, 34, of Kennesaw, Ga., died of accidental acute amphetamine intoxication ... The drug cited in Boyland’s death is addictive and can be prescribed to treat attention-deficit disorder and narcolepsy."[2]

[1]("These Are the 5 People Who Died in the Capitol Riot" New York Times; Updated February 22nd, 2021; http://www...n-capitol-building-attack.html )
[2]("D.C. medical examiner releases cause of death for four people who died during Capitol riot"; Washington Post; April 7th, 2021 https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/trump-riot-death-medical-exainer/2021/04/07/53806608-97cf-11eb-a6d0-13d207aadb78_story.html )

..
[tw]: "...but the one cop who died may not be from the rioters so that changes everything..."

The one officer who died was the only officer who died, and he died of natural causes. So the "violent" protests — not the "deadly" protests.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 20 21:11:12
that’s my point, change all ‘deadly’ headlines to ‘violent’, what’s the difference? pretty sure I always used “violent”

judging the act based on whether one particular cop died is weird... it would have only been a small group who even interacted with him

also 4 random deaths is pretty weird... must’ve been Jared Kushner’s aura of evil hanging over it all
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Apr 20 21:40:10
[tw]: "change all ‘deadly’ headlines to ‘violent’, what’s the difference?"

It's a big difference. It's narrative. "Deadly" was used because it stokes a narrative of a murderous throng of "political terrorists" who were killing any opposition — a true threat to "democracy" who would take away the will of the people by opposing a good and just and perfect election by murderously overthrowing the government (by seizing a ceremonial podium, no less!).

"Violent" here tempers the narrative and reveals that no deaths were directly caused by the mob. "Violent" reveals that in fact the Capitol protesters killed no one. "Violent" forces a more honest comparison to the political violence perpetrated by and on behalf of the DNC — which was indeed deadly and in no shortage of examples.

..
[tw]: "judging the act based on whether one particular cop died is weird... it would have only been a small group who even interacted with him"

I agree. DNC media was hinging their "deadly" narrative on this officer's death and insisting that it was at the "deadly" hands of the "insurrectionists", but it was a "small group" of only two people who were even peripherally involved with Sicknick: one giving the other a can of mace, and the mace-sprayer getting a brief mace-stream into Sicknick's face. So one person maced Sicknick, Sicknick was treated and in "good spirits", and Sicknick died of a stroke the following day (recovery from pepper spray typically takes an hour or two).

But DNC media paraded Sicknick's body like that of a fallen hero, buried him with exceptional and uncommon honors, and made him the great tragedy of the "insurrection" — the shining example of the great thing that the "insurrectionists" had destroyed in their question to overthrow the great City on the Hill. It's very "weird" for sure. Pretty dishonest. Very manipulative. Very opportunistic. This narrative got its outrage capital when that capital was needed, and the amount of people who would follow up on the misinformation is so small that DNC media doesn't even have to stop using the same language going forward.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Apr 20 21:42:19
*"in their [quest] to overthrow"
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 20 22:36:18
"a murderous throng of "political terrorists" who were killing any opposition"

but everyone knew it was 1 cop... also they -were- chanting 'hang Mike Pence', so still kinda murderous

140 injured cops including lost eye & brain injuries (if that guy wasn't exaggerating too much) seems worse than if they did kill 1 cop... shows it was broadly violent

and their goal was indeed to lead to Trump taking office instead of Biden... Trump was putting out the message that if it just got sent back to the states, he'd win, & that stopping that proceeding was how to do it (& that saying Pence failed to do so... even though Pence didn't have that ability)

i don't see how 'insurrection' doesn't apply, and looking at 'sedition' law it seems to fit 2 of 3 qualifications on that (when only need 1), that was in one of these threads
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 20 23:33:43
actually the sedition thing is this thread above :p

also, “1776” was another of their cries... it being impossible isn’t relevant in the cult, ex. Pence wasn’t able to reject the votes but didn’t stop Trump from saying it over and over (even though surely told the facts) and the cult believed it otherwise no reason to chant for his death

Trump tweeted how Pennsylvania was ready to change electors, with some letter from traitors in the PA legislature... and other nonsense about how he could still win (he hasn’t conceded to this day for that matter)

so yeah, they were still trying to seize power
Cherub Cow
Member
Wed Apr 21 21:21:52
[CC]: ""a murderous throng of "political terrorists" who were killing any opposition"
[tw]: "but everyone knew it was 1 cop..."

"Everyone" did not know. The narrative was that this was a "deadly" attack. For the proles, the idea was to obfuscate just how many dead and how those people died by hiding those details behind the big bold headlines. They succeeded. People believed the lies DNC media told and the false causality that they produced.

[tw]: "also they -were- chanting 'hang Mike Pence', so still kinda murderous"
[tw]: "also, “1776” was another of their cries..."

"Murderous" perhaps — but not deadly. I used "murderous" as part of a bigger description that included "killing". The protesters did not kill anyone. They were not deadly. And "hang Mike Pence" is protected speech, just as it was protected (albeit murderous) speech for the White House rioters to set up a guillotine for a Trump doll and say, "Off with his head!" during an event which tried to break through barriers and storm the White House. Chanting, "1776" has the same protections and can even simply mean a call for Constitutional duties or a turn towards founding principles.

..
[tw]: "140 injured cops including lost eye & brain injuries (if that guy wasn't exaggerating too much) seems worse than if they did kill 1 cop... shows it was broadly violent"

Injuries are definitely not worse than death.

..
[tw]: "and their goal was indeed to lead to Trump taking office instead of Biden..."

Which they could accomplish through protesting and voicing their complaints. Conscientious legislators inside the Capitol Building would be able to refer to the protestors while calling for pause and election integrity investigations. No "[seizing]" of power necessary. Most simply wanted process and recognition. #NoJusticeNoPeace ?

..
[tw]: "i don't see how 'insurrection' doesn't apply,"

To whom does it apply? The entire crowd? No. Most of the crowd? No. A few people in the crowd? Perhaps. How many have been charged with insurrection? Zero. How many *could* be charged with conspiracies peripherally related to acts of insurrection? About six people ("Insider"; April 21st, 2021; http://www...t-arrests-charges-names-2021-1 ). Did those six people lead the entire mob into the Capitol Building with the publicly stated and overt purpose of overthrowing the government? No.

..
[tw]: "and looking at 'sedition' law it seems to fit 2 of 3 qualifications on that (when only need 1), that was in one of these threads"
[tw]: "so yeah, they were still trying to seize power"

Those six people could possibly face sedition charges, yes. If it is found that they truly wanted to seize power, they will be charged. That does not make the entire Capitol protest itself seditious or an attempt to seize government power through force.

Incidentally, it would perhaps be insurrection if a group of people wanted to dismantle the entire system of U.S. governance. For instance, if a large body of people wanted to abolish the Senate, pack the Supreme Court, remove the Republic-sustaining Electoral College and replace it with the popular vote model that the founders of the United States vehemently opposed, create an authoritarian one-party state, remove due process of law and replace it with mob rule wherein guilt is presumed and innocence must be proven, end capitalism and a market that allows liberty, end private property, make end-runs around the Constitution by employing tech monopolies to silence free speech, remove the Second Amendment to the Constitution such that only the government is allowed to monopolize force against its citizens, end the social contract between citizens favored in the Declaration of Independence in favor of mob violence and Marxism, and de-fund every state's police and replace them with federal authorities of the one-party state — all via sustained shows of force, large-scale private property destruction, and political murders — I might consider the group at large to be.. a little bit insurrection-y or seditious. But I still wouldn't over-indulge the fallacy of association.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Apr 21 21:59:28
we may just have to agree to disagree

a story of 1 cop killed could be just 1 murderer... 140 cops injured, some seriously, means broad mob violence which seems more concerning to me... although i didn't need those figures or any article w/ "deadly" to inform me of the event as so many videos & photos

-------

"Which they could accomplish through protesting and voicing their complaints. Conscientious legislators inside the Capitol Building would be able to refer to the protestors while calling for pause and election integrity investigations."

maybe... but not really... there was no chance of the objections succeeding, but no one was telling the cultists that, certainly not Trump. Trump made it seem completely up in the air still. He didn't care about how things worked (ever), he tossed out any & every idea. And certainly gave the impression that stopping that vote could lead to a different outcome... like on the PA changing electors thing. There was no process for that, but he didn't care (ever). And his fans bought into every bit of nonsense he said (again, as proven by 'hang Mike Pence', but by so many other things too)

-------

i don't know the specifics of insurrection as a criminal charge, as for sedition, way more than are 6 guilty of it... who will get charged i have no idea, as you have to -prove- they were in on the violence aspect, a lot of the identification has been people doing just selfies & shit after the cops had surrendered a portion of the building so not proof of violence... same problem you have w/ leftist rioters throwing shit at cops, you have to ID & prove they specifically threw the item that hit whomever, thus not as many arrests as people want (although these cultists did way worse than throw things)
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