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Utopia Talk / Politics / Anyone here dumb enough to hate crypto?
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:32:46
Just curious if there's any luddites here that either:

a) Think crypto is worthless because it's only worth what people think it's worth. (AKA EVERY TRADEABLE ASSET IN EXISTENCE)

b) Don't realize that Internet 3.0 is being developed right before our very eyes. And it's a good thing for individuals. (All it takes is a crypto wallet and you can connect to a whole new internet where people profit instead of companies.)

c) Think this whole "Decentralized Finance" stuff is a scam. (The only people that want to believe that is bankers. Are you a banker?)

d) Think crypto is a "Ponzi scheme". (EVERYTHING IS A PONZI SCHEME YOU BOOMER, INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES DOLLAR)

e) Don't understand crypto at all.

If any of these apply to you, let me know and I'll answer your questions.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:35:26
f) Compare crypto to tulip bulbs.

g) Think crypto refers to currencies. Cryptocurrency is a misnomer. 90% of crypto projects are not primarily for currency uses.

h) Think "blockchain" is just a buzzword. It's an entire new way of thinking about problems at scale.
hood
Member
Sat May 01 19:40:55
i) think the massive amounts of resources, energy and computing power being devoted to proving things can be done could be vastly better spent.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 19:41:05
I think Sen might be, don't quote me on that.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:49:08
There are two main "cryptocurrencies":
Bitcoin
Ethereum

Cryptocurrency isn't even an accurate word. Neither Bitcoin nor Ethereum are intended only to be used within a payment system, and Ethereum itself makes no such claims.

Bitcoin: This is the closest to an actual currency, but has transformed into being a store of value over time due to its inefficiencies. You can think of it as Digital Gold.

Ethereum: This is a platform to build "decentralized applications". All this means it enables the creation of peer-to-peer services where no middleman takes a cut (by default, but you can create a middleman if you want to build on top of another service and charge a fee).

Some examples of services:
Lending/Borrowing Services
Stock Exchanges.
Cryptocurrency Exchanges.
Insurance.
Yield farming.

Picking out one at random, Yield Farming is basically providing the money for a banking service (such as converting between currencies). The service charges a flat fee, such as 0.5% of the transaction. The fees are shared by everyone providing the money.

The easiest way to understand "Decentralized Finance" is to remove the word "Decentralized". That's literally all it is. Same finance systems and principles that have existed in centuries, but without corporations needing to run them.

That's not to say corporations don't exist! There are corporations in Decentralized Finance (DeFi). Referred to as DAOs, they are decentralized autonomous organizations where every change is voted upon. You get 1 vote per token you possess.

That's pretty much the gist of crypto.

Bitcoin & Ethereum. Bitcoin is digital gold and Ethereum is a platform that runs thousands of Decentralized Finance, or DeFi, projects. The coins these projects use are called "altcoins".
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:50:07
Hood, perhaps you are not aware but cryptocurrency uses less energy than its counterparts. Mining gold is much less energy efficient than Bitcoin.
hood
Member
Sat May 01 19:53:02
your argument is rather flawed, as nobody mines gold to use as currency anymore.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:55:13
Nobody mines Bitcoin for that either, did you read above?
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:55:44
Not making any argument, either. Sharing knowledge.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 19:56:58
But if your argument is inefficiency, that argument is extremely flawed. All of Bitcoin's energy inefficiencies have been fixed for years. Bitcoin only had an early mover advantage but it's about as relevant to currency as gold is to $USD.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 20:11:40
Transactions are slow ( 10.minutes)

But I dont have anything against it. Its just not meant for tapid transactions.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 20:15:30
http://www...interests-of-civilization.html

Charlie Linger hates Crypto, and those damn kids hittingntheir baseball's in his yard.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 20:17:45
Unger*
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 20:21:41
Transactions are instant on some blockchains, that's a solved problem.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 20:42:40
Which crypto is instant?

It was a big reason that Jaime Dimon was against it as a means of transactions, considering JPM does thousands (millions?) of transactions daily.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 20:48:37
It was a big deal that IMO doomed bitcoin as a daily regular use means of exchange.Could you imagine going to 711 or McDonald's and having to wait 10 minutes for each transaction?

But for say buying a Tesla, it works fine.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 20:49:54
Ripple, for example, takes around 5 seconds. We can quibble about whether or not you'd consider that instant, but it ain't the 10 minutes that was claimed.

There are quite a few faster than Ripple, but it's the biggest one that had a large throughput.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 20:50:56
Bitcoin Cash is another one that's effectively instant.
Y2A
Member
Sat May 01 20:52:58
I don't see the added value that cryptocurrency has above standard government issued currency.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat May 01 20:57:11
it’s beneficial to criminals
Y2A
Member
Sat May 01 21:04:27
beneficial to criminals doing long distance transactions than can't be made in physical cash is my understanding.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 21:07:08
Cryptocurrency isn't an alternative to government currencies. That's merely a small part of the larger picture. Missing the forest for the trees by thinking that way. Same with the criminal detail. Not all cryptocurrency projects can be used to hide it launder money. That's simply a side effect of the projects attempting to achieve a high degree of privacy. But, again, has nothing to do with cryptocurrency. Forest, trees.
Y2A
Member
Sat May 01 21:09:19
IF it's not an alterative to government issued currencies then what is the point? What is it's benefit to the average person?
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 21:15:04
> IF it's not an alterative to government issued currencies then what is the point?

You can build an alternative to government issued currencies with crypto, but that's not what crypto is. Look up the forest, trees analogy. You're only looking at a small part of the big picture.

> What is it's benefit to the average person?

Have you ever used the finance system for anything? If so, you will benefit from decentralized versions of the financial system by cheaper fees, no bias, and a higher degree of security.

And the smaller fees aren't paid directly to a "Bank" it's paid to anyone that wants to provide banking services.

You can benefit both ways. You can take out a loan and get a low interest wait, or provide liquidity for loans and earn a high (usually 10-90%) APR. You can either use the bank or be the bank.
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 21:16:45
There's only one milestone left before crypto takes over:

Becoming User Friendly.

The fact that it takes me all these posts just to explain it belies a lack of cogent user experience.

Solvable problem. Very solvable. But the system is still being built. Ease of use hasn't been a priority yet.
habebe
Member
Sat May 01 21:32:19
"You can benefit both ways. You can take out a loan and get a low interest wait, or provide liquidity for loans and earn a high (usually 10-90%) APR. You can either use the bank or be the bank."

How is that different from US currency? what makes this a better means to loan my buddy Fred some cash or vica versa?
nhill
Member
Sat May 01 21:38:25
It's no different if you are looking at it as a transaction between you and Fred. How is Fred BTW?

The difference is when you are in the pool of money that is used to provide liquidity. By putting your money in a pool that can be loaned out (all loans are collateralized in the crypto world), you now obtain money the exact same way the banks do. Charging fees. But crypto fees are smaller, so it's better for both people. How many savings accounts you know of that provide 10+% APR? Remember, this is on USD, because there are USD cryptocurrencies. I use DeFi for my savings account and currently reap a 105% APR reward. That can go up and down depending on demand and how many people use the service (since you get a cut of the fees).
Dukhat
Member
Sun May 02 01:47:19
Crypto is for for fucking morons. Clear pump and dump pyramid scheme. Its designed for internet retards who are anti-everything.

“Big banks dont want you to know ...” “big government wants to hold onto power.”

Huge overlap with republican base. Happy to let private hucksters like Trump rip them off as long as they can get back at some bogeyman like the government or banks.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 02:51:04
Cool. Any arguments or...just whining?

Got anything to bring to the table?
Daemon
Member
Sun May 02 03:50:26
Blockchain is mostly useless. All the hype a few years ago, but where is the result?

Even companies like IBM use it only for fake purposes:

http://the...ew-cuomo-covid-ibm-blockchain/

Cuomo’s Covid-19 Vaccine Passport Leaves Users Clueless About Privacy

A New York state system for proving that you’ve been vaccinated uses overhyped blockchain technology — and leaves many privacy questions unanswered.
[...]
What sets Cuomo’s approach apart is that the data behind the Excelsior Pass lives atop a blockchain, the software technology behind Bitcoin and other digital currencies. A blockchain is essentially just a widely distributed list of data whose contents are verifiable as genuine using cryptography (essentially, complex math). Blockchains are typically public, their contents transparent to anyone with an internet connection, but the one behind Excelsior Pass will be private, meaning only parties sanctioned by IBM will be able to check the contents.
[...]

“There is zero reason for blockchain to be involved in this problem,” said Matthew Green, an associate professor of cryptography at Johns Hopkins University and the creator of Zerocash, a software protocol designed to improve the privacy of the Bitcoin blockchain.
[...]
Seb
Member
Sun May 02 04:03:05
Hate is a strong word.

Massively overrated is a better term.

Blockchain hadn't got many applications.
Seb
Member
Sun May 02 04:03:18
*useful.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 04:26:46
Blockchain has no place in the corporate environment. Yes, already said that. This is about decentralization.

Now does anyone have any argument to bring to the table?
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 04:28:24
Most people think of blockchain conceptually as a database and try to mold it to fit their problem from that lens.

Too bad for them. They lost buzzword bingo. But not really the topic here.
Rugian
Member
Sun May 02 05:15:05
Looks like someone got triggered by watching Bill Maher's latest show.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJpYjO136o
Rugian
Member
Sun May 02 05:20:26
^I love how he's going on his anti-crypto rant but then his audience starts clapping for Dogecoin. He looks so angry there lol
Daemon
Member
Sun May 02 06:09:35
nhill, I just gave you an example how people really really try to use the blockchain but fail at it, because it is utterly useless in 99,999% of all software problems.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun May 02 08:29:32
Daemon
What you posted is literally indistinguishable from hundreds of cases of government incompetence and misapplication of technology (any). I can give you half a dozen examples from Sweden, involving really petty technology (like webportals), no block chain at all. It does not render websites and webportal technology useless, because incompetent people get their hands on it and fail at it.

It is a strange argument, because you can say that about a lot of technology or inventions, they are ”useless” for 99.999% of problems. Antibiotics and cancer meds are useless for 99.999% of medical problems.

Additionally, the usefuleness of technology and all the fields for application, isn’t generally obvious 10 years after it emerges. Haven’t we learned anything from the last 30 years and forgotten, all the failed applications for online commerce and communication? I still remember, ”people will never give out their financial details on the interwebs!”

Ok bommer...
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 09:35:47
Daemon

Yes, we get it. People use buzzwords thinking it's a magic bullet and it bites them in the ass. Not relevant to the conversation, but I do appreciate you bringing it up.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 09:42:57
Rugian

I haven't, nor will I ever, watched Bill Maher's show. I don't watch TV, but I've seen his video get passed around. Haven't watched because he's not relevant enough for me to care.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 09:46:55
You do bring up a good question, though, of why I'm addressing this issue in the first place.

First, it's to help any laggards around here, and second, it's to take a census of sorts. Anyone arguing against crypto is simply slow to adopt to change, and a bit of a luddite. That's fine. I forgive you all for it, even.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sun May 02 11:06:35
This paid advertisement brought to you by Bitcoin server farms around the world.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 02 11:40:10
"The difference is when you are in the pool of money that is used to provide liquidity. By putting your money in a pool that can be loaned out (all loans are collateralized in the crypto world), you now obtain money the exact same way the banks do. Charging fees. But crypto fees are smaller, so it's better for both people. How many savings accounts you know of that provide 10+% APR? Remember, this is on USD, because there are USD cryptocurrencies. I use DeFi for my savings account and currently reap a 105% APR reward. That can go up and down depending on demand and how many people use the service (since you get a cut of the fees)."

So lets say I start a small lending club. Is this what your reffering to?

How is my loan collateralized?

But what your saying (I think) is that this lending club "LC" cuts out the middleman (bank) and thus has lower fees.

My concerns is that crypto atleast now is more volatile.

Also lets say, they dont want to pay me back, what is my recourse? This may be answered in the collateralization peice.

Also, how do they liquidize it to say spendable cash. Lets say it's a home repair loan, you can't spend crypto at home depot

Im not against it. Just a little ignorant on it I suppose.

nhill
Member
Sun May 02 15:50:36
WoO

1) Lol. Nobody has enough net worth here for me to care about that.

2) BTC? Old news. Many projects don't even have miners and use proof-of-stake or proof-of-space.

Habebe

> So lets say I start a small lending club. Is this what your reffering to?

Kind of, except it's public and auditable. Completely transparent.

> How is my loan collateralized?

Blockchain code takes care of that. Again, auditable.

> But what your saying (I think) is that this lending club "LC" cuts out the middleman (bank) and thus has lower fees.

Yes.

> My concerns is that crypto atleast now is more volatile.

The loan is in USD, not crypto.

> Also lets say, they dont want to pay me back, what is my recourse? This may be answered in the collateralization peice.

You are part of a pool, there's no concerns about an individual paying back. You can deposit or withdraw at any time and take your profits. No risk.

> Also, how do they liquidize it to say spendable cash. Lets say it's a home repair loan, you can't spend crypto at home depot

It's in USD coins (crypto coins tied to the price of USD). You can transfer them to your checking account through an exchange.

> Im not against it. Just a little ignorant on it I suppose.

I appreciate your openness and you are smarter financially than most of the people in this thread because of it. Feel free to keep asking questions!
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 15:54:14
> How is my loan collateralized?

If you're wondering what the collateral is, usually it's a cryptocurrency called Ether, which powers the Ethereum network.
Seb
Member
Sun May 02 17:14:29
Nhill:

How are crypto coins tied to USD.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 17:23:07
Lot of strategies but usually arbitrage through liquidity pools.

The liquidity pool will buy every coin that goes on sale for $0.99 and sell every coin that people will buy for $1.01 through persistent limit orders.

Therefore the coin stays tied to exactly $1.00 and the people in the pool reap the arbitrage profits.

Usually about 10-30% APR for the pool members. Many pools have billions of dollars in them.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun May 02 17:28:45
Which coins do that besides tether?
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 17:33:03
Tether, USD Coin, LUSD, DAI, TerraUSD, BUSD, etc.

Tether is different because it's supposedly backed by real dollars instead of arbitrage so it's considered safer. Theoretically you can redeem it for actual currency. Although they were audited and only ~75% of collateral could be located. So it's a *little* bit sketchy, as if 76% of the 80 billion dollars they have locked up is redeemed they'd run out of liquidity.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 17:33:59
But that's not very dissimilar to traditional banks. They rarely have 100% liquidity, too.

But that downside is why I stick to pegged coins.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 17:36:34
The potential downside of pegged (arbitrage) coins is that the liquidity pool backing the coin runs out of money to fill the orders. That's happened a couple times in the early days, where USD coins were sometimes ~$0.90 and sometimes ~$1.10. But the price stabilized once the pools filled back up (which was incentivized with massive APRs at the time due to the arbitrage opportunties).
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 17:48:44
> Its designed for internet retards who are anti-everything.

Dukhat. LMFAO. Massive cope.

Imagine thinking 2 trillion dollars in total value locked is for internet retards. Guess internet retards are richer than you'll ever be.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 02 18:17:37
Do you have any HT videos you recommend?
Habebe
Member
Sun May 02 18:19:33
Dukhat is a billionaire according to....dukhat...
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 18:22:24
Habebe

I learned by playing around, reading code, and reading whitepapers, but that does require a bit of play money.

I've heard there's a channel called DeFi Dad that's good, though. Never watched one.
nhill
Member
Sun May 02 18:22:40
> Dukhat is a billionaire according to....dukhat...

Some things never change
Dukhat
Member
Mon May 03 00:26:14
Just a lot of jargon meant to gaslight you. Every neckbeard in my old wowguild would always go on about blockchain and all this other bullshit meant to confuse you.

Bitcoin is not used for any legitimate transaction nor does it provide any useful good or service. It's a speculative bubble. No doubt you can become rich through it if you know when to enter or exit.

But to do that you have to have extra information like the criminal cartels and big investment banks do. The average joe doesn't know shit.

And it's not a particularly ethical endeavor either. Even if you accept bitcoin as a legitimate currency, currency traders don't create any value in the real world. They just try to make money in a zero sum game where somebody else has to lose.

And then there's all the environmental harm.

But hey, a lot of dumbasses pumped crypto to 2 trillion dollars just like a bunch of dumbasses put Trump in the white house. No doubt some people will get rich simply from being lucky, but they're only just that: lucky.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 03 02:13:22
nhill
Well, we have a spot open as Cryptoguru of UP, it is thankless job, most of your coworkers are idiots with an inflated ego and a sense of worth that is discordant with reality. You have to work for free and there are no perks or health insurance. But for whatever reason it is fun to do it.

You will notice one of the things technicallt educated people are most concearned about, or simply misunderstand is the energy question and transaction rate. There are two answer, get rid of PoW or, people who bring up energy consumption, simply do not see the merit of the system and in principle think we shouldn’t put any energy into it. I don’t think energy is a problem.

http://www...hread=87979&time=1619169050078

Dukhat
Member
Mon May 03 03:33:57
He's not a crypto expert. He's just trying to enlist other people. Pyramid schemes depend on new money coming in.
Seb
Member
Mon May 03 03:46:49
Nhill:


"The liquidity pool will buy every coin that goes on sale for $0.99 and sell every coin that people will buy for $1.01 through persistent limit orders."

Exactly. You've invented a gold standard era type of central bank to make your decentralised currency work. Only the "gold" here is the USD. So you additionally vulnerable to financial controls applied by the US banking system, and the honesty and transparency of the coins central bank; which we are calling a liquidity pool because it's too embarrassing to admit what we've actually done here.

Seb
Member
Mon May 03 03:58:15
Also, the liquidity pool can do evil things like point a finger at a particular address and say "I deem this individuals coins are worth 50cents" and because the transaction log is open they can apply that forever after.

So in a way, you are worse off than dealing in cash.

Stable coins might as well be a central database run by the liquidity pool. But this is called a bank (just not a fractional reserve Bank).

So we have the same issues regarding debt creation (total interest on all loans denominated in a cryptocoin cannot exceed the rate of increase in cryptocoin, otherwise bad debt is guaranteed*, so any economic growth faster than that rate leads to deflation).

Seb
Member
Mon May 03 03:59:37
The big mistake a lot of people make with crypto is focusing too much on the internal mechanisms of how the stuff derives its properties; instead of how those properties interface with the rest of the economy.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 03 04:17:53
Dukhat
That remains to be seen, we judge people by their words and actions. Besides, you have literally no good standing on UP with anyone about anything. You went full retard and then doubled and doubled and doubled down on your retardation.

The path to redemption is clear, you should apologize to Rugian.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:22:23
Duckhat

Lol. You still on about Bitcoin? Bitcoin isn't even relevant these days beyond a store of value. Of course it's useless for transactions. Duh.

Let me know when you have an argument to bring to the grown up table, because all I see is whining.

Seb

That's a lot of words to stay pretty much nothing. Stablecoins aren't necessary, they are there for those that want to use them.

Nimatzo

I feel like a missionary going to backwater Alabama. Clearly a thankless job, but I'll take it.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:31:58
> The big mistake a lot of people make with crypto is focusing too much on the internal mechanisms of how the stuff derives its properties; instead of how those properties interface with the rest of the economy.

I think you were the only one asking about the mechanisms, but I see you're trying to maintain a modicum of respect unlike certain children here, so I'm happy to engage in the macroeconomic implications if you'd like.

Crypto doesn't solve problems with traditional finance. That's not the point. It decentralizes it and allows people to profit instead of big banks. Same macroeconomic issues exist in crypto as regular finance. It's not some magic bullet that'll fix the economy. It is a bullet that renders big banks, in their traditional iteration, irrelevant. But big banks can join the rest of us on a mostly even (deep pockets still has advantages) playing field, if they'd like.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:33:11
> He's not a crypto expert. He's just trying to enlist other people. Pyramid schemes depend on new money coming in.

^and this is why he stays poor. So mistrusting. None of you have the net worth for me to care if you join me in the "pyramid scheme" or not. I'm already retired and set for life.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:43:42
> That's a lot of words to stay pretty much nothing. Stablecoins aren't necessary, they are there for those that want to use them.

Apologies for this comment, Seb. I conflated you with Duckhat, but you're actually trying to have a semi-real conversation without all this ad hominem amateur hour.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 03 08:44:33
"I feel like a missionary going to backwater Alabama. Clearly a thankless job, but I'll take it."

I admittedly don't know much about crypto...but what confuses me the most about the whole thing is why so many of its advocates do this whole missionary thing where they constantly evangelize the qonders of crypto to the masses.

Is there something about purchasing Dogecoin that causes people to believe that they're now in the proselytizing business?
Sam Adams
Member
Mon May 03 08:49:26
"Think "blockchain" is just a buzzword."

Blockchain is a fancy word for public ledger.

Meh.

Boring.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:55:26
Boring is good. It is essentially a public ledger secured by distributed computing power and cryptographic algorithms.

But don't get me wrong, blockchain IS a ridiculous buzzword that upper management tries to shoehorn into every project for the razzle dazzle.

But it's more than that, too. It's the architecture powering 2 trillion dollars of money from "internet retards" (apparently that's what we're calling professional investors, e.g. Raoul Pal & Jim O'Shaughnessy).
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:56:38
> Is there something about purchasing Dogecoin that causes people to believe that they're now in the proselytizing business?

I've never bought Dogecoin. You're either a dumbass or a social sentiment investor if you bought $DOGE. That project is pointless.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:57:28
> I admittedly don't know much about crypto...but what confuses me the most about the whole thing is why so many of its advocates do this whole missionary thing where they constantly evangelize the qonders of crypto to the masses.

I understand your concerns about evangelizing. It happens. I'm sharing knowledge and don't give two shits if you put a red cent into crypto.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 08:58:41
The Bitcoin maximalists, "DOGE army", and other evangelists are super cringe. No understanding of fundamentals, economics, or crypto in general. They just signed up for an ideology.
habebe
Member
Mon May 03 11:37:31
Nhill, I have some side cash sitting around, I figure I have 2k that I wouldn't mind losing and have pegged to dabble into investments.Ive figured since starlink is supposed to go public, Is plop it in there.


My reasoning is that I don't want to invest in anything I don't understand. Starlink seems like its guaranteed to be at least moderately successful.

1. They already have US military contracts.

2. I beleive in the mission to get underserved high speed (I use shitty satellite internet now)

3. Everything Musk starts will be successfully atleast early on as people.flock to it just because his name is attached. So its initial offering will go up even if its a flop later on.
habebe
Member
Mon May 03 11:44:59
http://www...scale-Bitcoin-Trust-OTCQX-GBTC


Thought this link would fit it in here.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 03 11:53:29
Nhill
”It is a bullet that renders big banks, in their traditional iteration, irrelevant.”

This is, one of the reasons I am interested enough to have invested money in it. That and that it can act as a leverage/insurance against tyrannical state actors, or those entertaining the idea of going tyrannical. The assets are basically protected from being seized.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 12:06:51
I wouldn't personally recommend anyone invest in cryptocurrency or DeFi. It's a risky space. I believe in the technology and vision, but it's very early right now in a Cambrian Explosion of projects. Hard to tell where the dust settles.

The safest 'investment' would be BTC, followed shortly by ETH. ETH has more upside, but may be more volatile.

If you do want to get into DeFi, you can do it one of two ways.

1) You can invest in tokens like $LINK that power DeFi. ChainLink is necessary for over 200 projects, so it's the safest DeFi investment as it naturally diversifies itself across the DeFi ecosystem.

2) You can begin to use DeFi. I'd suggest https://eth.liquity.fi/ simply because I like the elegant simplicity of its code (I have no investments in their token). But there's hundreds of different services.

If anyone wants to do 2, feel free to ask questions.

None of this is investment advice, just sharing knowledge.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 12:12:11
^that was to habebe
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 12:12:35
> This is, one of the reasons I am interested enough to have invested money in it. That and that it can act as a leverage/insurance against tyrannical state actors, or those entertaining the idea of going tyrannical. The assets are basically protected from being seized.

Yup. It's a good hedge against inflation & tyranny.
Seb
Member
Mon May 03 12:40:35
nhill:

"It decentralizes it"

Except it often doesn't, despite purporting to. F.Ex stable coins reliance on a central banker, underlying mining economics favouring aggregation listing up 51% attacks etc.


Stablecoins are an "innovation" to handle the fact that you can't get stable prices with crypto without some anchor of value. In Fiat currencies, this is tax base.

"It is a bullet that renders big banks, in their traditional iteration, irrelevant."

I disagree, it actually makes them even more important. In an economy based (hypothetically, as I see no way for it to actually emerge) on a crypto currency, banks would become essential sources of liquidity in much the way they were during the gold standard era. You'd end up with scrip issues by banks redeemable for crypto; and as back then, bank runs would be common.

Nim:
"The assets are basically protected from being seized."
This is what does my nut it with crypto currencies. You are completely ignoring that the "asset" is just a digital token. The tyrannical govt simply takes your actual stuff and doesn't care about the token at all. Same problem as with NFT's - they are Not Fucking Tangible.
kargen
Member
Mon May 03 12:40:35
Somewhere out there I have some bitcoins and some earlier currency I don't remember the name of. The first stuff you could do little puzzles and crap like that to earn it. I used it to purchase songs. Later I bought some bitcoins to use to purchase songs from a Russian site because I didn't want to give my credit card info to them.

I have no idea what site I was on when I did that and even if I could remember no way would I still know user name and password. I know there was still some funds in the account though because the site I was getting music from was blocked in the US and I never found anything else to spend the coins on.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 12:43:57
Seb

I didn't mean Stablecoins decentralize anything. They are a feature, and nobody needs to use them if they don't want to. You can also convert your crypto straight to fiat on an exchange instead of using a stablecoin. Or, you could simple hold onto cryptocurrency. Up to you.

And there are a lot of centralized cryptocurrency services from an organizational standpoint (despite the protocols adhering to decentralization, naturally).

The DeFi system as a whole, though, is a decentralized version of our current financial system.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 12:47:28
> I disagree, it actually makes them even more important. In an economy based (hypothetically, as I see no way for it to actually emerge) on a crypto currency, banks would become essential sources of liquidity in much the way they were during the gold standard era. You'd end up with scrip issues by banks redeemable for crypto; and as back then, bank runs would be common.

The crypto system already has billions of dollars of liquidity provided by individuals.

The banks can play, too, if they want, but they have no advantage over me. I make the same amount (on a % basis) that they make. It equalizes the playing field, to a degree. But as I mentioned, deep pockets always have an advantage due to flat fees.

You are not looking high level enough.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 03 13:02:06
"You are completely ignoring that the "asset" is just a digital token."

You are completely ignoring that fiat money, is just a piece of paper a bank printed. I have no idea what you think is relevant about the medium for communicating value.

"The tyrannical govt simply takes your actual stuff and doesn't care about the token at all"

Objectively better than them taking your stuff and your money. Seems obvious?
Habebe
Member
Mon May 03 13:03:42
Nhill, I may look into dipping my toe in, maybe a few hundred just to get my water legs.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 03 13:05:52
Just stay out of the shit bucket, you step into the shit bucket and you know the shithawks are close.
Habebe
Member
Mon May 03 13:14:53
I've pushed the Idea to my.brother in law. I figure its a safer gamble than his scratch off tickets which in the last year Id estimate he dropped several thousands on.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 13:58:49
Yes, it's safer than a lotto ticket. Good luck. $ETH $BTC $LINK is what I would recommend if I made a recommendation. I'm not making a recommendation, though, for reasons stated above.
Habebe
Member
Mon May 03 14:05:14
His lotto addiction is the worst ive ever seen. Spending hundreds a day at times.

This way he still gets his gambling fix but just about anything is a safer bet than scratch offs.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 14:21:58
Yup.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 14:22:46
Avoid $DOGE. It may go up but it has no fundamentals so there'll be a massive pump and dump.
Seb
Member
Mon May 03 14:37:36
Nhill:


"The crypto system already has billions of dollars of liquidity provided by individuals"

You are fudging what is meant by liquidity here.

If you define liquidity in terms of *dollars* available to redeem for your cryptocoins, you've already failed as a currency. Cryptocoins are then just an odd form of security.

But if you want the magical world without banks where crypto coins are primary currency - at best you've turned your crypto into gold, but actual liquidity will be needed and created by "paper" - as it was under gold standard.

Hence banks become more essential in a world were crypto replaces fiat currencies. Most people end up using "paper", some form of scrip, issued by banks, in order to create liquidity.
Seb
Member
Mon May 03 14:45:04
Nim:

"You are completely ignoring that fiat money, is just a piece of paper a bank printed."

Yup, but one I can always use to pay taxes or for goods and services thanks to govt.

Obviously a tyrannical govt can come and inflate it away or reissue the currency.

But I'm not making extravagant claims about the ability of cryptocoins to make my property out of reach of govt.

The reality is that the only thing that cryptocoins can take out of reach of a tyrannical govt is the token itself (and then only in so far as the govt doesn't simply lock you up until you hand it over).

"Objectively better than them taking your stuff and your money. Seems obvious?"

They just demand you pay them tax all the same. You end up selling your coins to buy their fiat currency.

And your cryptocoins are not money now, because situated as you are within the jurisdiction of the tyrannical govt, nobody will accept it as a medium of exchange for dear of punishment. It's now just a worthless ledger.

You'd be better off with a stash of physical cash.
Seb
Member
Mon May 03 14:51:51
Nhil:

You could hold other cryptocoins but they oscillate wildly in value driven largely by supply/demand.

All in all you either end up with something that's a poor store of value and poor medium of exchange; but is decentralized (at least until miners end up too concentrated); or something that's centralised. In either case, as a currency they are all effectively variants on the gold standard, resulting in liquidity needing to be created in the form of scrip or a parallel fiat currency; and if they did become dominant would result in the same disastrous monetary impacts the gold standard did.

They are collectively as amusing form of speculative asset and an enabler of novel transnational criminal business models.

But their ability to revolutionise or upend the existing economic order is hugely oversold. The desired properties needed to make it decentralised and operate untrusted are the properties explicitly abandoned disastrous in actual monetary systems.
Seb
Member
Mon May 03 14:56:32
Put it another way, how do you imagine a mortgage would work, end to end, in a purely bitcoin denominated economy.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 03 14:59:03
No seb, you leave. Your assets being safe from seizure, you say good riddance cut your losses and you leave that country. You don't stick around and pay taxes, it is just common sense.

Luckily the world is not monolithic and the instance one country tries ban crypto exchanges or in other ways, clamp down on it, other countries will cater to it and capitalize on it. Tyrannical government won't let you pay taxes with crypto? Well, good bye then.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 15:10:36
Seb

I see you didn't read my posts. Well all the answers are already in this thread other than 1:

Crytocurrency is not going to 100% replace fiat any time soon. I'd estimate it takes 15-30 years before DeFi is being used for the majority of banking services. Did you not know that the Fed is developing a cryptocurrency already? A digital dollar. And China already did it with Yuan.

Good luck. Time will prove everything. Remind me of this post in 5 years and I'll collect your tears for not getting on it sooner. Easy to get a savings account with 100% APR due to the rapid adoption, but that will decrease to 5-10% APR once adoption remains static. Will be many years before that happens, and our money will be compounded massively.

It's funny/sad to see people stay low/"middle" class simply because they're a luddite, don't want to be proven wrong (ego), or have joined the anti-crypto cult because it's a cool boomer thing.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 15:12:22
I was able to retire recently by obtaining a 6 figure income for 7 years (engineer), and moving my savings to DeFi in the past year.

A beautiful thing. Complete freedom at age 35.
nhill
Member
Mon May 03 15:31:01
The whole govt can take down crypto was already debunked when India did that. Crypto prices in India went way up, not down, when it happened. You'd have to see a global coordinated illegality movement for it to have a negative effect. Good luck getting all the govts to place nice when any govt can just benefit by not signing on. :)
jergul
large member
Mon May 03 16:28:10
nhill
Nice! Congratz.
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