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Utopia Talk / Politics / Is this lady insane? Or is it just me
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 11:34:11
http://twi...tatus/1396158661739880453?s=19
Rugian
Member
Sun May 23 11:40:00
Do you think these kinds of people were sexually assaulted when they were younger and subsequently went off the deep end with their resulting man-hatred, or were they just roped into feminism and SJWism at an impressionable age and never grew out of it?

Either way, that poor kid is f*cked.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 11:50:21
It almost makes me want to be more religious and pray for a flood or something.
jergul
large member
Sun May 23 11:53:38
I have no idea what you find offensive about that beyond the assumption that children unguided grow into monsters.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 12:00:07
And that's why your women make you sit to pee.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:03:17
jergul

The part where she implies White Males grow up as awful if they don't read books about how to be Not Awful is ridiculous.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:03:44
Also, where's the dad? ;)

Probably cleaning, huh.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 12:07:07
To add to Nhills points the focus on white males (dad) and not just, everyone should help out.
Hot Pot
Member
Sun May 23 12:11:45
Why dont we boycott these books. Who are with me?
jergul
large member
Sun May 23 12:18:28
So you are not challenging that children grow up to be awfull without guidance, you just don't like books as educational aids?

Very post literate. Kewl.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:18:59
I don't ever clean the house. Have 4 kids and a wife for that. I make sure we still have a house.

'Course, it helps that neither of us need to work anymore (my contract work is hobby at this point). Everyone should help out w/ cleaning in dual-earner families.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:20:41
> So you are not challenging that children grow up to be awfull without guidance, you just don't like books as educational aids?

Nah, just don't care much about implying that White Males default to awful. Would she have said that same statement if her kid was a Black Male, or White Female?

If she said I'm reading these books so my child doesn't grow up as awful, you'd have a point.

Unfortunate for your thesis, as that was not said.
Cloud Strife
Member
Sun May 23 12:21:44
Do you never clean, or do you help out?
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:25:38
It's a division of responsibilities. I help out with tons of stuff. Yard work, managing our wealth, teaching the kids how to use guns, homeschooling them on math & economics, grilling, maintaining our network, taking the kids camping/fishing, etc. And they support me making a better world through AI by keeping the place clean and making sure I get a couple hot meals a day.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:27:01
I don't clean and do laundry, and they don't do yard work or manage our wealth. It's an arrangement that everyone enjoys.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun May 23 12:27:23
boys natural tendency is to become selfish criminals

her 'white male' comment probably a joke, none of the books have anything to do w/ being white
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 12:42:00
The books themselves I have no issues with. I'd prefer to show those things by example, instead of drilling it through books simply because it's more effective that way, but each to their own. Perhaps the father has left the mother and she's compensating this way.

Again, my only issue is the implications that White Males are automatically awful. Joke or not, we all know that 'joke' wouldn't have been made if her child was Black or Female.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 14:07:44
I grew up on a similar style, albeit older style books. Ot was a set of white hardback books.

Each story would label a trait and the story would generally have a famous person in history with the moral of story.

I remember Confucius being one and it was about responsibility or trustworthiness etc.

I was not taught that I had a predisposition to being awful.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 14:11:00
http://www...E#idiq=8727947&edition=1819001

Found them! If they weren't already here packed away somewhere Id buy them for my daughter/nieces.

I remember.liking them a lot as a kid.
Kaylana
Moderator
Sun May 23 14:31:25
Hopefully it was just a poor verbal delivery of the idea of encouraging broader respect for diversity given that society and institutions still put more prominence on the successes of a singular demographic.

I did not get the impression that she intended to teach him to be self-hating, not even the slightest, but she will have to be overly cautious of what she implies, or he may feel those inadequacies anyway, which is one of the biggest forces driving young men to extremist groups.

I can understand habebe's concerns, but there isn't enough in the short clip to draw much conclusion one way or the other.
Seb
Member
Sun May 23 15:45:28
Teaching consent is pretty easy and pretty simple and kinda important. We taught our daughter from the get go: she can say no if she doesn't want to kiss granny or hug someone; and also that other people can say no too.

It's no big issue.

Nhill:
Jesus, that's just a bit sad really. You are financially independent and you can't spring for a cleaner and make your wife and kids do it instead?

Did your wife actively chose to take a purely domestic role, or was that something that you slipped into before you were financially independent? Even if the earnings aren't needed, is there not something she might find more fulfilling to do?

We have a simple rule. Both our earnings go into the common pot, we take an equal allowance for walking around money - and split the domestic work as close to 50:50 as we can - any that we don't outsource. Doesn't always quite work out - but that's what we strive for.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun May 23 15:50:12
Cons are so damn fragile.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 16:05:52
Depending on my job when I was married my household chores changed. When I was doing 12-16 hr shifts I would still do the yard work (weekends usually) and I'd wash my work dishes and any baby dishes and steamed/sanitized them.

When I was working a regular 40 HR job and she was working part time I'd do most of the cooking and shr would do the clean up, but often we would cook together. Lots of soup and salad meals because that's what we liked. I topped everything with small hard pretzels.

I would take out the trash and work on car, that sort of stuff. She did laundry, paid the utilities, cleaned the house etc.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 16:13:06
Seb

We homeschool and are generally very independent. I offered to get a housekeeper but she prefers the privacy and it’s good for the kids to learn hard work. The kids don’t even know the level of our net worth and we prefer to keep it that way. We’re country folk and like traveling around via RV. Everyone is very happy but thanks for your concern, White Knight.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 16:14:24
I don’t *make* them do anything, weird projection. It’s an arrangement that happened naturally long before I made my break. Ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 16:22:51
BTW I came from nothing, literally. Was homeless at one point after losing my parents. Put myself through college while being a stay-at-home dad. Didn't take help from the government. Worked four jobs for years, 90+ hour weeks to get us to this level. Now we can take it easy and live a traditional life.

Haters gonna hate.
Rugian
Member
Sun May 23 16:25:27
nhill

I don't usually like to cast aspersions on Seb's personal life, but since he's the one that broached the issue...

Seb is in a relationship with a far-left Latin American feminist. So he is incapable of comprehending the prospect of a woman who is willing to do household duties that, according to his lady (as well as his university indoctrination), are "retrograde" or "beneath the dignity of the most important person in the household (yas queen!)."

Basically, you have to recognize that you're dealing with someone who thinks that a family unit is not a partnership of equals who divide labor via methods forged by collective tradition and experience dating back over the past 10,000 years, but as one where the woman dictates and the man obeys.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 16:38:01
"Seb is in a relationship with a far-left Latin American feminist. "

Who also has a penis.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 16:44:27
Well, good to know. All I have to say is I hope he and his wife/husband (that part is kinda vague) are happy. Live and let live. Be nice if he reciprocated that sentiment but I'm not holding my breath.
Y2A
Member
Sun May 23 17:01:54
"Seb is in a relationship with a far-left Latin American feminist."

Which one is she?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB1cWh27rmI
Seb
Member
Sun May 23 17:14:05
Nhil:

"Be nice if he reciprocated that sentiment but I'm not holding my breath."

Hey, you raised your domestic arrangements for comment, not me.


"It’s an arrangement that happened naturally long before I made my break. Ain’t broke, don’t fix it."

There's a mismatch between "I am financially independent and I work really only as a hobby" to "well, I figure they owe me meals and cleaning".

The way I see it, as an individual and as a family unit domestic work is a necessity, and if removing that time burden is a requirement to work, then effectively it's the other way around: the partner who is skimping on domestic duties technically owes the one who is covering them.

Rugian:


"I don't usually like to cast aspersions on Seb's personal life, but since he's the one that broached the issue."

I think you'll find Nhill did! He's the one that put his domestic arrangements out there.

"So he is incapable of comprehending the prospect of a woman who is willing to do household duties"

I'll also think you will find I said we split domestic work 50:50, so not sure where you got the idea she's unwilling to do housework.

"experience dating back over the past 10,000 years"
Lol, yes, for 10,000 years the man has worked the desk job engineering software to feed the family.

Habebe:
I guess the question is whether, during your time in jail, you had penis... and where ;-).

nhill
Member
Sun May 23 17:18:36
Are cleaning and laundry the only duties in your house?

We have a good split, and cleaning/laundry aren’t on my plate.

You are making 0 sense.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun May 23 18:07:18
Seb
"she can say no if she doesn't want to kiss granny or hug someone; and also that other people can say no too."

Is the lesson here that granny's hugs and kisses are on the same continuum of consent and concern as getting molested by the football coach?

But I totally get it, my son didn't want to brush his teeth the other day and instead of forcing him to do it, I told him it was OK. That his toddler tantrums all exist on the continuum of human autonomy and independent thinking. I looked him in his defiant eyes and said, you are an independent thinker son, not a sheep, brushing is for SHEEP!
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun May 23 18:23:51
My son thinks dying, means you get X on your eyes. I didn't know if to laugh or cry when he said that. So, I am pretty sure he doesn't understand granny and grampy are going to DIE relatively soon. I do, that is why I instruct him to kiss them and hug them and admonish him when he doesn't. *I* know that apart from me and wife there are no two other people he is safer with and who love him more, he doesn't. This is part of the process of socialization.

So, to let the moral panic of recent years invade this sphere, is weird as fuck to me, as if this is confusing.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 18:26:14
Nim

I’m not exactly following as it’s hard for me to discern your sarcasm, should there be any. What do you think about the video?
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 18:31:44
Seb, Of course you often imagine me in scenarios of myself in jail with multiple penises....I expected nothing less.

Nimatzo, I lucked out with that, my kid is a neat freak like her mom or me on adderall.

But yeah, seb is weird.Its standard in my family for younger kids to give relatives hugs and kisses goodbye. No forcing neccesary.

Also Sebs Granny is a tranny.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun May 23 19:02:48
nhill
Oh there is a lot of sarcasm, I just wonder where seb draws the line respecting the autonomy of his child. I violate my child's autonomy all the time to enforce and instill good behavior. I have never forced him to kiss anyone, but it also isn't "Ok" to refuse grand parents, especially in our culture where kissing cheeks is the norm. It is all a balancing act, but hugging and kissing grandma is on the safe, good side of physical contact, that is the lesson I am teaching.

The video is just sad. Apparently white heterosexual males are the only group to not be free from original sin. Yea the rapture came and you still have the soul of rapists and mass murderers and need good books to be saved!

I'm in a deep slumber by any woke measure.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun May 23 19:12:34
I actually have a funny unrelated story about him catching me with weed. I have kept it away from him for obvious reason of not wanting him to talk about stuff he doesn't understand and it being illegal here. On a couple of occasion he saw me doing something and of course he asked, "what is that?". I got away with saying "Nothing" twice. The third time, I said the usual "Nothing", but this time he had caught on to me, he looked at me skeptically pointing his hand and said "What do you do with nothing".

I panicked! I had nothing to say! I went, stop asking philosophically nonsensical questions, you can't do anything with nothing, then it wouldn't be nothing, it would be something! I bought some more time, because that went totally over his head and he stopped asking questions. True story :,)
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 19:20:50
My kids havnt really noticed a difference between ciggarettes and weed. They see adults step out to smoke cigs all the time and we treat it no different when I have it, which is to say I go outside and walk around and smoke.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 19:30:13
Nim

Gotcha :) Pretty much the same, here.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 19:33:30
I vape weed every once in a while, but I tell my younger ones that it's something recreational, much like the scotch I drink from time to time. They haven't really given it a second thought. They're more concerned when I smoke cigars because of all the anti-tobacco propaganda out there.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 19:39:31
I used to smoke a lot when I was younger. Now I get a gram 2-3 times a year. But my older neice and her BF come down and visit every Easter for a few weeks and they turned me on to cartidge vaping it.

So convenient, no lingering smoke, no lighter, no breaking it up etc. All I have to do is push a button and inhale...loved it.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 19:42:00
I have lung issues so the vaping is a good way to help restore full function (I only have 1/2th function of 1 lung after it collapsing and me not wanting open chest surgery to reattach to chest wall). That's also why I smoke cigars, as you don't need to inhale them. Plus they taste a hell of a lot better.
Habebe
Member
Sun May 23 20:07:29
Ive had breathing issues for a while, but especially since I moved down south. The pollen is literally like sci-fi movie crazy, when it rains the puddles look like you emptied a glow stick in it
Also its humid.

That was actually one of the reasons I used to resist vaping. I would cough much more vaping till I got used to it.

Long term it seems better, I still only smoke a few times a year.
nhill
Member
Sun May 23 20:56:38
Vaping causes intense coughing especially at the +400 temps. It's improved my lung function a lot since I started it. It's basically the equivalent of the lung exercises I used to be prescribed & my doc has seen lung function improvement since I engaged in the vape.

But yeah, I'm down South at the moment. Deep South. We have a farm up north but a house in the suburbs that's currently home base when we aren't travelling. And the allergies are way worse down here.

We have air filters in each room, just a basic GermGuardian one. Makes a big difference.
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 01:19:38
Nimatzo:

No, it's on the theory that the expectation you have to comply to please others when they demand to touch your body is a learned behaviour.

Getting kids comfortable that they can say no in certain situations when an adult demands that, long before you teach them about sex, is a great way to minimise grooming risk etc.

"my son didn't want to brush his teeth the other day"

A different thing. We did have a bit of attempted "my body, my choice" pushback for a day or two (probably less time than we will get it from you, proving 3-4 year olds get it faster than you will*) until we explained that not having to hug people didn't mean you didn't have to brush your teeth.

Like I said, it's contextual - kids learn it quickly, probably quicker than it will take for you to work out an exact written and analytical definition of which circumstances are fine and which are not.

*Which is to be expected because Evolutionary Psychology tells us that children are faster learners because on the Savannah where we evolved children had to learn from errors faster, whereas adults, having succeeded in finding survival practices would be heavily penalised for deviation from successful methods. This also explaining why people become more conservative with age.

Habebe:

Oh contraire, I had to think a bit to understand why when primed with "hot Latina" you went straight to imagine a cock.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 06:06:29
"No, it's on the theory that the expectation you have to comply to please others when they demand to touch your body is a learned behaviour."

So, pretty much what I said, that you believe that hugging granny and getting groped all exist on the same continuum and that kids either do not understand that difference or that this difference isn't the salient one to teach. I was raised to kiss relatives in a really automated manner upon greeting and leaving, it never occured to me that I should let grown ups molest me. Probably because the lessons my parents taught around these things, where more complex than "it is ok to say no to grandma".

"Getting kids comfortable that they can say no in certain situations when an adult demands that"

"Adults" is a very broad term, we are talking about grand parents and the people you have for various reasons are in your circle of trust.

"A different thing."

The point is children will refuse many different things that are part a healthy lifestyle, hugging granny is one of those things or daddy, my son makes it a joke to refuse me good night kisses. I don't force it on him, but I make clear my dismay, the lesson isn't "this is OK behavior". They don't understand why these things are necessary or important because they are children. You don't have to have a healthy relationship with your family and relatives, just like you don't have to take care of your teeth. That isn't the person I am aiming to raise.

"Like I said, it's contextual"

Like the very differet contexts of hugging granny and getting molested. Children are quick learners as you say, they can learn the difference. It is the grown ups who are fucking it up by pathologizing all physical intimacy along the same continuum. Which is what said, despite responding "no".

"children had to learn from errors faster"

You are not doing your position any favors with this evolutionary take. The period you are talking about, children are virtually only surrounded by their relatives, often close relatives, like grand parents who are heavily involved in the child rearing. We are programmed to be socialized with people around us, it is thus a great disservice to the children to not socialize and bond with the people you know they can trust. I am making a generic assumption that you and your wife trust your parents, but there are cases where that isn't true. This is eroded, because people have forgotten "stranger danger" is an actual thing we have been teaching to kids for ages and that they are actually programmed to learn even have inherent aversion to people who look different than those around them. This form of child rearing makes no distinction, but instead gives in to insolent childish behavior on the back of the metoo moral panic.

The child sized wisdome and heuristic you are looking for is, "it is ok if granny asks for a kiss, but not your techer or the football coach". Context is the enemy of low level heuristics.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 06:11:23
Correction, it's not even a heuristic, but simply surrendering what is right and wrong to the mind of a child.
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 06:55:37
Nim:

"So, pretty much what I said"

No. Can you explain to me why the idea that kids are socialised to believe that
they have to perform certain actions (hugging, kissing) demanded by adult implies there is a continuum between kissing granny and being raped? That doesn't logically follow any more than learning drinking to excess to impress your friends is a bad idea implies that there is a continuum between a bad hangover and a motorway pileup.





that you believe that hugging granny and getting groped all exist on the same continuum
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 07:01:31
"and the people you have for various reasons are in your circle of trust"

Indeed.

http://www...%20another%20family%20member4.
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 07:03:11
Pretty weird this strong objection to the idea that children shouldn't be forced to hug and kiss people and have the option to say no.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 07:14:11
I just wrote several paragraphs on the why. I reject the premise ”demanded by adults”, the appropriate category is people in your trusted circle, people who you can trust to baby sit. Whome I trust to raise my children in case me and my wife both die.

My friend, you explained how you are teaching your child ”consent” by tell her refusing granny kisses and hugs, if she doesn’t want to, is OK. You have put this normal and healthy show of affection and process for bonding on the same continuum as criminal behavior. Unless you think there are inherent risks associated with kisses and hugs from relatives/friends who you know you can trust your children with, you need to explain this, not me.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 07:25:14
Seb
If your parents are horrible people who you suspect may molest your child, these are *marginal* circumstances I acknowledged in my post and then what I am saying doesn’t apply to you. Keep your child away from your parents.

Please acknowledge this and if this isn’t true about your family, explain where you think population level statistics fit in to your personal circumstances.

”shouldn't be forced to hug and kiss people and have the option to say no.”

I explicitly explained there is no forcing, but that I make clear this isn’t OK behavior. Your daughter may decide to become a stripper, aint shit you can do about it, but frowning and using words and your behavior to convince your child to change her ways. Please acknowledge you misread or misunderstood this.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 07:38:43
And, if your parents and relatives actually are a safety risk to your child's health, then teaching them consent by refusing kisses and hugs are the least of your problems. I would have a hard time imagining any kind of relationship with people like that, mother, friend, cousin, doesn't matter. They are not allowed near my child, let alone hugging and kissing them.

Your link is double fun, because according to it you as the father are the most dangerous person in your child's life. Does that makes sense given your circumstance? Are you in fact a threat to her?

Grand parents are, I guess, included in the 10% other. I would guess they rank very low, because people that age with such grave depravity have generally been found out long before they get grand children. Often molested their own children. Did your parents molest you and your siblings? I actually firmly believe grand parents are the safest bet, even as general advice.

Don't give me shit now, because I assumed the best of you and your immediate relatives (i.e normal majority population family circumstances where the child is not at risk of getting molested by her family). Context is king here, we both agree. And if your context is horribly different than mine, by all means, keep that girl away from her grand parents.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 07:44:11
And clearly you do not understand that molesting children or willfully harming them, is on another continuum, than even the "normal" sexual miscondunct in the adult population. But here everything is bundled together, with grand moms kisses. You may not understand this, but this is exactly what you did the moment you said you are teaching "consent" this way.
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 07:49:47
Nim:

Your logic is broken. Telling a child they don't have to hug or kiss if they don't feel like it, and should not hug or kiss people if they don't feel like it no more implies a continuum between kissing a relative and rape than letting people know they don't have to accept every offer of a drink means that a hangover and a drunk driving car crash are on the same continuum.

Nor, from our experience, has it prevented our child forming emotional bonds or indeed hugging and kissing her family members.

It's almost like hugs and kisses are a healthy thing to do when people want to do them.

"explain where you think population level statistics fit in to your personal circumstances"
In my exact personal circumstances, the stats help me refute your silly point.

The fact you trust your family (as the family of many abuse victims do) isn't a compelling reason to force a child to kiss and hug if they don't want to.

There's no harm in this.

"explicitly explained there is no forcing"
Create a social expectation then. That's the point isn't it really "oh, I really have to kiss him goodnight because he bought dinner and it would be rude not to" kind of stuff.

The idea is simply to teach children they don't have to do things with their body if they don't feel comfortable.

Contrary to your fears, this doesn't seem to cause any problems at all.

There's really no reason at all to be getting so worked up about it. Why has it triggered you?
habebe
Member
Mon May 24 08:23:36
seb, I bet you had to think about it, you thought long and hard about my cock its ok, no judgement here.

"Pretty weird this strong objection to the idea that children shouldn't be forced to hug and kiss people and have the option to say no."

Now this was aimed at Nimatzo. But I just want to point oit this typical seb tactic, which is to dumb down the entire argument mixed with an attempt to weaponize it like the other argument is some sort of crazy and dangerous idea.

He literally does this so much we could call it Sebbing or Sebbed.

"Stop sebbing the thread up" or "You just Sebbed it, gross"
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 08:46:00
Habebe:

As opposed to Nim here, suggesting that teaching children they can say no to a hug implies granny demanding a kiss is like your cell mates unwanted attention?

I mean the three main points Nim has raised here are:

1. if a kid can say no to Granny wanting a kiss, you are saying granny wanting a kiss is on a continuum with a football coach molesting you
2. Being able to refuse a kiss must mean you will let them refuse to brush their teeth.
3. It is unhealthy to support a child to refuse to kiss a relative they don't want to kiss because that means that you've put bonding on the same continuum as rape.


With that in mind I think we should call it "Niming"

More to the point, the observation is accurate. Nim *does* strongly object to it. By force I mean exert strong social pressure, not physically force, I think I made that clear already. What do you think I'm dumbing down, exactly?
habebe
Member
Mon May 24 09:19:13
Call what "Nimming it"?

I think ypur dumbing down the entire arguments to a simple "He wants me to force kids to kiss people" without the clear context.

You go on to weaponize it when you imply nefarious means to your opponent by over simplifying an argument through the removal of context.

You this or something similar ALOT.

I don't even have a horse in the race, its just not that deep to me for what this has devolved into.

But that tactic of sebbing is like ypur MO.
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 10:06:19
Habebe:

The thread is the context. It doesn't need to be repeated in each post.

Also, no, I'm not saying he's wanting to force kids to kiss people. I'm saying the strong objection to the idea that shouldn't is weird. And it assuredly is.

At best you might say "this isn't really necessary" or "I don't think it really will stop them, when they get older, from feeling pressured into more intimate actions". Strong objection though, of what? A story about a ladybug that asks before they hug their friend?

I think you are confusing your inferences with a hidden subtext that isn't there. Possibly because in your heart you know there isn't really much to object to in this, but you feel compelled to find something to react to that isn't really there?

As for weaponisation, what exactly have I implied is Nims nefarious aims here? Compare and contrast to Nim who seems to insist that telling a kid they don't need to kiss granny if they don't like is implying granny wanting a kiss is on a continuum with a rapist.

The simple point is to ensure kids internalise "you only have to show physical affection how and when you want to, and you can always say no".

Genuinely, does anyone object to that as a principle? Are you really comfortable suggesting subscription to this principle implies granny hugs are on a continuum with rapists? And are you seriously suggesting there's a reasonable and sensible way this isn't an example of "reducto as absurdum" (this is the formal name for the tactic you are accusing me of).

Come on Habebe...
jergul
large member
Mon May 24 10:32:36
Seb
Good points on "now go give old autie Gertrude a kiss".
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 10:44:20
Jergul:

To be honest I don't know how strong the connection is: that kids being forced into displays of affection because otherwise they get judged inculcates the basis for peer pressure later on - but actually I don't really care. If my daughter doesn't want to kiss auntie Gertrude or hug snotty billy in nursery goodbye I don't see why she needs to and I'm fine letting her know she can say "No thank you, I don't feel like it right now".

It doesn't exactly presage the collapse of the nuclear family and Western civilization.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 10:47:57
"Your logic is broken."

Your premise is insane, I can’t help what becomes of the logical conclusion. Refusing to show affections towards people you can trust and who love you, is a teaching moment for consent according to you. You may agree these things are not on the same continuum, but you have placed them there. I again assume stuff about your specific context, that your child isn’t mentally retarded and can tell the difference between “adults”, that she isn’t a zombie that blindly obeys “adults”.

“Nor, from our experience, has it prevented our child forming emotional bonds or indeed hugging and kissing her family members.”

You don’t know that yet first of all, she isn’t even half way done yet, but secondly, this is about the silly ideas grown ups have and that we pray doesn’t fuck up an entire generation. Big gamble, simply because the “adults” got caught up in a moral panic and could not tell their ass from their feet.

"In my exact personal circumstances, the stats help me refute your silly point."

My silly point is context. You have not refuted any specific context I didn’t already deal with, by showing us a statistical break down of a behavior that is marginal and not generally applicable.

“Create a social expectation then.”

So what. Social expectations are evaluated on their merits, not dismissed based on them being social expectations. Not molesting for instance is also a social expectation along with keeping a good hygiene and a bunch of other stuff either codified into laws or just as general cultural concepts.

“"oh, I really have to kiss him goodnight because he bought dinner and it would be rude not to" kind of stuff.”

Lulz Mhhm from the social expectations around me kissing my son good night to the prelude of a date rape, but sure keep denying you have put these things on the same continuum.

You have been damaged seb, don’t let your child inherit this damage from you.

“The idea is simply to teach children they don't have to do things with their body if they don't feel comfortable.”

Like working out, it is actually quite painful or dozens of other uncomfortable things you need to do with your body as part of a healthy lifestyle. You can try to distill this into bite sized general principle that you think fits inside the head of a child, but the issue is already complex out of the gates and so your attempts to save this only makes things dumber and dumber. I understand where you are coming from, because I also find it very hard sometimes to simplify certain ideas and concepts for my son, but there is clear line where simplifying them to make the child understand is just dumbing things down. So, you have to try to scaffold it the best you can and let it take the time it needs to build.

I have no idea if this is your actual parenting style or bait and switch tactics in the discussion. It doesn’t really matter to me, you can’t teach children complex issues by dumbing it down to low level heuristics, that you yourself only can apply successfully, because of years and years of lived experience. In fact, in many ways those principles are a result of that experience.

My parenting style is different, I recognize the severe limitations in the child and decide that (including who) which is good or bad for him and socialize him into our ways. This includes hugging and kissing as a matter of cultural protocol, it is as you say “not a big deal”. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

“Contrary to your fears, this doesn't seem to cause any problems at all.”

You have a very limited time frame and poor understanding of human development. It is like that one time you showed me there was no difference in the math skills of toddler girls and boys and said it was the social environment that made the difference later in life, apparently unaware of the significant development and sexual dimorphism that occurs in puberty.
Habebe
Member
Mon May 24 11:05:55
"Come on Habebe..."

Ok, Biden....

Anyway I only skimmed your last post.

In short, again, not really picking a horse here, just to say that that tactic you used has a pattern of use by you.

You will try to summarize the entire back and forth down to a paragraph or so and then try to weaponized/gaslight people.

Im this case you strongly inferred that there was something off with Nimatzo for "habing strong opinions against consent" as you put it, paraphrased.

I'm not even saying it was wrong really, just that it's a common seb tactic.
jergul
large member
Mon May 24 12:10:29
Seb
It does not matter really. Its more of a parenting mixed signals thing. Your choice of intimacy is your own except when it comes to kissing old aunt Getrude is poor messaging.
Seb
Member
Mon May 24 12:34:56
Nim:

It isn't a logical conclusion though, it's just some random bullshit you made up.

It no more follows that "you don't need to accept every offer of a drink if you don't feel like it" implies a continuum between a hangover and a DUI offence.

It's just a string of word salad. I haven't placed them on a continuum, you have. I see them as entirely unrelated examples of physical intimacy.

Meanwhile, over here in planet sanity, it's just the simple principle: if you don't want to hug or kiss someone, you don't have to, you can politely decline.

Generally, she likes hugging and recieving hugs. In fact I can't remember a time she's said no. But I do remember her stopping and realising a somewhat shy friend didn't want to hug.

There's nothing damaged about any of this. You are massively overreacting, particularly if you think it somehow means there is some kind of similarity in kind but difference in degree between a granny wanting a hug and a football coach wanting a grope.

"You have a very limited time frame and poor understanding of human development."

Oh look, Nim claims to be an expert again. Even as he goes ballistic about the most anodyne thing ever, and suggests that a child declining to kiss aunty Gertrude is damage and that allowing the kid to do so implies Gertrude is like a rapist.

No Nim, sorry, you've completely lost the plot.


Seb
Member
Mon May 24 12:36:05
I see them as entirely unrelated examples of physical *interaction.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon May 24 15:29:39
” It's just a string of word salad.”

Call it what you want, but the word salads you strung together likened the ”social norm” of how we greet close family and friends with the ”he bought dinner, so I guess I at least have to suck his dick”.

”Even as he goes ballistic”

löl, You thinking you or anyone on UP energize me for the stupid things you people say, that is signs of a mental disorder. You suffer for megalomania my friend. I saw my son’s head, come out of my wife’s cunt. I touched his bloody cunty head, mid-birth. This barely keeps me awake.

”Oh look, Nim claims to be an expert again.”

Heh, this is embarassing that you are forcing me to spell it out, but I claimed you are uneducated. And apparently a little slow ;)


Seb
Member
Mon May 24 16:17:58
Nim:

" but the word salads you strung together likened the ”social norm” of how we greet close family and friends with the ”he bought dinner, so I guess I at least have to suck his dick”."

Factually incorrect on two counts: firstly I didn't liken the two, I suggested the learned behaviour share a common principle - that one should feel obliged to engage in intimacies in order to appease a social norm - that does not make the acts equivalent. Secondly I said kiss, not give head. You've pulled me up on less, even in this thread, you should retract.

"You suffer for megalomania my friend. I saw my son’s head, come out of my wife’s cunt. I touched his bloody cunty head, mid-birth."

I can sort of see this being delivered by a foam specked Robert Boratheon... I'm not sure what you were aiming for but you definitely achieved deranged, illogical megalomania.

"but I claimed you are uneducated."
Which would require you to have expert knowledge in order to compare other peoples to state of the art. QED.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue May 25 04:21:36
The only thing coming through is a very simplistic understanding that because I force the child to brush his teeth and enforce "social expectations" around dental hygien, the child will not know the difference between a tooth brush and a dick.

"foam specked Robert Boratheon"

I think everyone else understood this as, the stupid things people say on the internet doesn't get under my skin, considering what I witnessed. I mean I could have also said, you don't watch all those Islamic state propaganda videos, without becoming emotionally diminished towards generic internet stupid. You barely keep me awake, let alone go "ballistic". Megalomania, you clearly do not understand where this ranks among the things on me plate.

"Which would require you to have expert knowledge"

Do you need to be an expert driver to tell when somebody can't drive a car? You are being very very silly my friend, digging new reality defying rabbit holes for us to venture into. Not interested.
Seb
Member
Tue May 25 07:39:10
Nim:

Like I said, my then 3 year old daughter got it faster than you will, because you are old and inflexibly minded - likely due to the evolutionary pressures and cognitive limits that entails.

I'm really not sure what toothbrushes have to do with this. I'm fine with you raising your kids how you raise them - Amazingly my kid knows she has to brush her teeth, but she can also say no if she doesn't want to hug someone, and that sometimes other people don't want to hug and that's ok.

"I think everyone else understood this as"
Oh, contextually we all understood what you were getting at: a strident (if not quite believable) claim you are not overly invested in this - just a rather deranged way of expressing it.

"Do you need to be an expert driver to tell when somebody can't drive a car?"

You would need to see the outcome of them driving, which in this case you have not, so you are making a prediction based on the limited information I have given you. To form an opinion, you must therefore have expert knowledge of the impact.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue May 25 10:15:46
”my then 3 year old daughter got it faster than you will”

I have seen little kids behead people without flinching, where I would be sick to my stomach and shaking. I would not be a quick learner in the fine art of human beheading either at my age. I am not sure the “quick learning” abilities of children is this unproblematic virtue you think it is. You can teach children, all kinds of nonsense very fast and they don’t question it, because they are quite limited in their frame of reference and understanding of, among other things, consequences.

“if not quite believable”

I don’t really care either way. I just thought I inform you, that it makes you look slightly unhinged. If you read the thread, I made no assumptions about your mental state or burden you with what emotional state I think you are under, until you did. See below for textbook example of gaslighting.

Seb
Member Mon May 24 07:49:47
“There's really no reason at all to be getting so worked up about it. Why has it triggered you?

“in this case you have not”

Ah, now I understand, you sebbed it up. I didn’t make a prediction on the outcome of your child rearing, I said it was too early to say either way (go read again) and that your time frame for asserting “nothing bad happened” is ridiculously short since the child isn’t even halfway done yet (facts about human development). Then I provided an anecdote where you had previously showed high school level ignorance on human development.

No expertise needed other than at best BSc level understanding of biology, being familiar with you and remembering our past interactions.
Habebe
Member
Tue May 25 14:40:24
" I would not be a quick learner in the fine art of human beheading either at my age."

Don't under estimate your genes. I mean I dont think Id be great at mass extermination , but who knows until we try.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 02 19:19:58
Anyway, everyone screws up their kids somehow, I think sebs approach is weird and going to produce more little sebs.....but they are his kids to screw up any way he wants within reason.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 02 19:23:07
Anyway, everyone screws up their kids somehow, I think sebs approach is weird and going to produce more little sebs.....but they are his kids to screw up any way he wants within reason, there are plenty worse ways parents screw up their kids.
Pillz
Member
Wed Jun 02 21:26:53
"Do you think these kinds of people were sexually assaulted when they were younger and subsequently went off the deep end with their resulting man-hatred, or were they just roped into feminism and SJWism at an impressionable age and never grew out of it?"

Neither. This is all a logical result of 90s education.

Seb
Member
Thu Jun 03 02:42:37
Nim:

Are you seriously arguing that allowing a child to refuse to hug or kiss someone when they don't want to is - I believe your framing was - "on a continuum with beheading" now?



Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 03 04:43:52
Seb
I explained on which continuum it is on.
Seb
Member
Thu Jun 03 05:19:17
I think, in this thread, you have provided an excellent worked example of hyperbolic moral panic.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 03 08:11:57
Seb
...but you already conveyed that message last week and I explained, you didn't accept the explanation and I said I don't care either way. I thought we were done here, but apparently you feel like there is more to say on something when the other person has said "I don't care" that you just randomly pull it up again disconnected from where "conversation" was at.

Obsessive much?
Seb
Member
Thu Jun 03 08:38:49
Nim:

It popped up to the top again, and I hadn't noticed your reply.

"“Nor, from our experience, has it prevented our child forming emotional bonds or indeed hugging and kissing her family members.”

You don’t know that yet first of all,"

You seem convinced we can't tell whether our daughter is forming healthy and loving bonds with her friends and family because she's not grown up yet. The biggest indicator for me is that she does is because she actually continues to want to hug, kiss, and show affection for them even though she knows she doesn't have to.

I mean this claim you make - that this can't count as evidence as the child has not fully grown - is pretty desperate. It implies you aren't sure whether *your* kids have formed health and loving bonds with your family. If that's genuinely the case that's a big red flag.

Lets just say I'm convinced that you don't really believe your own positions here - what is really going on here is you, in a hole, digging deeper, seeking to justify each ridiculous thing with no regard to how your position overall hangs together.


Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 03 09:31:03
"we can't tell whether our daughter is forming healthy"

I have no idea if you can, it is also irrelevant. You clearly stated an ambition that your strange ideas about all intimacy existing on the same continuum is actually helpful later in life and not obviously not detrimental. You don't know that. That is what I said together with "You have a very limited time frame". I have previously explained "this is about the silly ideas grown ups have". I.e I am not interested in predictions based on the present.

These things simply do no register with you and when I bring them up you create more strawmen or simply ignore the corrections. Are you aware now for instance, that I _didn't_ make a prediction? Apparently, because now you have switched the same argument to how your child presently behaves. I don't fix things that are not broken-

"It implies you aren't sure whether *your* kids"

Already explained this as well. Kids can refuse all kinds of necessary things for all kinds of childish reasons. But obviously in your deranged world, everything people who disagree with you say, are signs of some sinister motives or mental disorders. lol do you even listen to yourself?

Don't judge us by your own standards. Mkay?

There is literally no reason to re-litigate this as I have, as always, been exhaustive in explaining and can just copy past from previous posts. You are going around in circles, grasping after straws and just making yourself look dumber than you actually are.

"seeking to justify each ridiculous thing with no regard to how your position overall hangs together."

Heh. Ironically you perfectly describe how I view you. See above paragraph.
Seb
Member
Thu Jun 03 12:48:45
Nim:

"that your strange ideas about all intimacy existing on the same continuum"

Nim, that's not my idea, that's your idea. Your mad, mad idea that you've been unable to explain how it logically follows.

"You don't know that."

Let me quote what you claimed I did not know:

"“Nor, from our experience, has it prevented our child forming emotional bonds or indeed hugging and kissing her family members.”

You don’t know that yet first of all, she isn’t even half way done yet,"

I do not need for my daughter to be fully "done" yet to see that being able to chose when and how she expresses affection has had no detrimental impact on ability to do so here and now, because we can observe her forming such attachment and expressing them in the here and now.

Further, given that emotional development is something tracked and reported on as part of Early Years development in nurseries here, I can say that hey, they also agree with us. Strange, that your BSc knowledge trumps child psychologists and says this cannot be determined until children are "done".

And in any case, if you *think* that cannot be assessed in the here and now, that must surely mean you think you cannot do the same of your children in the here and now, and won't know if they are capable of forming healthy emotional bonds now.

", as always, been exhaustive in explaining"

You failed at the first step in providing any basis as to why you think that anything I have said requires that there be a continuum between granny hugs and football coach abuse - yet continue to assert without basis that it reflects my position.

If I were to conduct discourse in the same fashion, I would be saying "you are grooming your children for rape" - which of course would be a disgusting, unfounded and irrational thing to say, but I include here to highlight just how specifically stupid you are being.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 03 13:16:33
”Getting kids comfortable that they can say no in certain situations when an adult demands that, long before you teach them about sex, is a great way to minimise grooming risk etc.”

-Seb

”Create a social expectation then. That's the point isn't it really "oh, I really have to kiss him goodnight because he bought dinner and it would be rude not to" kind of stuff.”

-seb

”that's not my idea, that's your idea”

-also seb

Deflect and project all you like, but this thread was past expiration date, like a week ago.
Seb
Member
Thu Jun 03 16:10:07
Nim:

The expiration date was the date when you failed to provide rationale for your completely bogus idea that getting kids comfortable with the idea that they don't have to engage in intimate contact unless they themselves want to necessarily requires me to believe that granny wanting a hug is the same as sexual abuse.

That was the point you should have accepted you were engaging in a bit of reducto-ab-absurdism and retracted.

There are many reasons someone might want a hug, and many reasons why you might not want to oblige- and many dimensions to those reasons.

I likened that arguing your position is similar to claiming that asserting you can *always* choose to refuse a drink when offered means that a friend proposing a toast is on some continuum with a DUI fatal car crash. There are many reasons for refusing a drink, and many consequences that follow from not doing so.

So far, other than quoting me over and over again - you haven't explained why it logically follows from what I have said that it necessarily follows that: Children being taught that they never have to engage in acts of intimacy unless they want to implies granny wanting a hug is on a continuum with being groped by the football coach. Further, I have explicitly rejected this false analogy.

Therefore If you want to attribute this false continuum to me, the burden falls to you to at least present a credible rationale as to how it is inescapable a consequence of statements I do stand by. You have singularly failed to do this.

tl;dr - you are engaging in clear bullshittery.
Habebe
Member
Thu Jun 03 16:19:28
I actually side with Seb here.

How someone raises their kids is like the most personal decision you can make, it seems like one of the most fundamental human rights that ever existed.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 04 08:58:30
Seb
You asked where I got it from, I provided 2 quotes of you doing exactly what I am saying. Teaching consent with grannie minimizes grooming risk you said. Your reponse ”he bought me dinner” is to me explaining the ”social expectation” of dental hygien!.

All if this is cemented when you post stats for, among other things, sexual abuse on children. Out of one corner of your mouth you repeat the connection to sexual crimes, out of the other corner you deny you ever made such connection between grannie and molesters.

This is the most egregious dishonesty you have disaplayed in quite a long time. Best case scenario, if I have misunderstood you (which I doubt, I think you are embarassed), it should be very very clear to you, where I got the idea of you thinking these things exist on the same continuum.

Deflect, deny, project.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Jun 04 10:30:13
"How someone raises their kids is like the most personal decision you can make"

Raising kids isn't personal anymore, unless you're like homeschooling off the grid, and that's very intentional.

Even someone not being raised by a self-hating racist will be inundated by these messages before they're a young teen.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 04 18:12:56
Nim:

Neither of those quotes necessitate a continuum between granny wanting a kiss and football coach wanting to cop a feel; for the reasons I set out.

You need to explain why you think they do. Or accept that you cannot do so, and retract.

It is that simple.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 04 18:14:29
Habebe:

You have completely missed the point. I'm not upset that Nim is criticising my parenting (who cares what an internet idiot thinks about my parenting). I'm saying his argument didn't stack up and he's being ridiculous.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 04 18:17:18
Nim:

"All if this is cemented when you post stats for, among other things, sexual abuse on children"

You talk about dishonesty! Noting that abuse by relatives exists is clearly not the same thing as saying all desire for intimacy is a spectrum of abuse.

I mean if that's what you took away from the argument, you probably need to call social services cause there's something wrong with you.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 04 18:18:40
Come on, this is desperate stuff Nim. When in hole, stop digging and accept you may have got a bit overheated. This endless doubling down with obviously bad faith arguments you yourself cannot possibly believe is pathetic.
Habebe
Member
Fri Jun 04 18:39:57
Seb, And I clearly diferentiated that point earlier and eas saying that as weird as ypur take on parenting is to most normal people, it seems odd to go so deep into such a private manner.

But whatever, its UP.
Habebe
Member
Fri Jun 04 18:41:30
I also think it's a little funny you of all people are.calling Nim an internet idiot. You clearly feel a certain kind of way about it or you would have dropped the issue long ago.
Seb
Member
Sat Jun 05 13:51:42
Habebe:

I care about debate- or I wouldn't be here at all. I don't come here for affirmation about my parenting.
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