Utopia Talk / Politics / Seb's disease

jergul large member	Thu Jul 01 15:53:11 The same number of children that did not get covid got: Pulmonary embolisms Deep vein thrombosis acute appendicitis Instead.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 16:01:31 Not related to the debate, but have another fun vaccine anecdote! It's all fun and games until it hits home. A close family member got the 2nd dose 4 weeks ago. She started having killer headaches which haven't abated yet. 2 weeks after the dose, she attempted to take her own life by writing notes to everyone and downing a bottle of pills. When she came to a couple days later, she couldn't remember why or actually wanted to do it. Just said she felt compelled and it made sense at the time. She sent us a text message right before the attempt that seemed very calm and normal (other than it having a tinge of a permanent goodbye). My wife went up to stay with her and is observing multiple seizures per night. She has a full medical team working on it, and it's not stabilizing. Perfectly healthy otherwise before the vaccine. They 'suspect' it's a side effect but haven't determined causation yet. I realize in the grand scheme of things people (e.g. Seb) will be coldly dispassionate and say it was worth the risk. She's 25-years-old, and you may find statistics backing up the claim. But doesn't change the fact that it certainly wasn't worth the risk for her. Especially since the COVID death rate for someone in good health at age 25 is miniscule. Be careful out there. I will not be vaccinating my children.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 16:06:11 (Moderna)
Habebe Member	Thu Jul 01 16:13:39 Does anyone know which vaccinnes are better to mix.I think Pfizer and Moderna are the same base technology (MRNA) Would it be better to mix an MRNA with a different base tech? I'm asking if I got moderna as first shot would Pfizer be a preferred 2nd shot or maybe JJ or something else.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jul 01 16:28:39 Seb "And if you are worried about long term effects, well there's little reason that I know of to think mRNA could cause long term issues" You chastised me ironically when I explained this whole long term effect thing, but here you are again, thinking it is deduced from brain storming with a lack of data and imagination. https://edition.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/04/30/swine.flu.1976/index.html Did people have any reason to believe this vaccine would have any adverse side effects? Probably not, but it did and it likely had immeasurable costs for public health in the form of vaccine hesitancy for decades in the USA. You are your own worst enemy.
Pillz Member	Thu Jul 01 16:32:14 Seb can't reason or do math Also corona vaccines are stupid. You're all stupid.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jul 01 16:38:05 Vaccines are great, we have saved 100's of millions of lives with vaccines, but like any medicament or medical procedures they have risks and those risks are juxtaposed with the benefit of taking them. The benefit of the covid vaccine for children in light of the non existent long term studies are a none starter. Assume for the USA 0 children die from the vaccine 60 died from covid. Of those the overwhelming majority had other factors playing in to their death. So, effectively for healthy children the risk of death in covid is (I checked it out, it is a proper qualifier) effectively a rounding error or ZERO.
jergul large member	Thu Jul 01 16:51:40 Jergul: 50% after January 1st 2022 Ruggy: 50% before January 1st 2022 Sammy: 50% before June 1st 2021 - off 9% Fowyn: 50% before November 1st 2021 Habebe: 50% before July 1st 2021 - off 3% State Department: 50% by May 19th 2021 - off 12.2% Obam: 50% before May 15th 2021 - off 13.8% =========== =========== What nimi said (mostly) Remember that none died from 1000 vaccines.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jul 01 16:56:59 I concur with Jergul :)
Seb Member	Thu Jul 01 17:00:32 Jergul: Source. The phase III trial involved none of those conditions. Nhill: A relative of mine did something similar four years back. Nim: Yes, the basis of that vaccine technology is fundamentally different and there are and were at the time more reasons to think it can have side effects. As I said, part of the great attraction of mRNA technology is precisely the precision and specificity it allows. ". Of those the overwhelming majority had other factors playing in to their death." You are implicitly assuming those factors will always be known ahead of catching COVID.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 17:08:17 The number of pro-plague death cultists who claim to be scientifically literate is shockingly high. Or it would be shocking if I weren't familiar with y'all. I wish you the very best covid cocktail nature can breed up from among your kindred.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 17:29:40 Lol Hood has such a 1D viewpoint on things. Surface level at best. Room temperature IQ. We've had two family members with extreme adverse reactions, it's smart & scientific for us to avoid the vaccine until we can determine if it's something related to genetic predisposition. Like I said, you can be all dispassionate and dogmatic about it, that's fine. I trust in science the method & you believe in Science the Religion.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 17:35:25 Avoid the vaccine for our kids, that is.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 17:47:56 "We've had two family members with extreme adverse reactions, it's smart & scientific for us to avoid the vaccine until we can determine if it's something related to genetic predisposition." The amount of stupid contained in just one sentence still amazes me.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 17:55:35 Lol, Hood must be smarter than a team of medical professionals. Impressive, young poser. What do you do for a living?
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 17:56:14 Perfect example of a midtwit. Perhaps a case study is in order. ;)
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 17:57:35 midwit*
Habebe Member	Thu Jul 01 18:03:22 Hood, Considering the rare occurrences of adverse side effects to have 2 cases within one family, Id think common sense would be to use extra caution when considering the vaccine. It could be a simple allergic reaction or somensort of prediposition to like an autoimmune response....IDK...
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:05:31 http://www...i/S0264410X11013065?via%3Dihub Genetic research into side effect predispositions has been ongoing for years, without any evidence falsifying the thesis and a few studies supporting it. But I suppose the Mayo Clinic is a bit behind the times and Hood knows something they don't. lmao
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:06:49 http://www...i/S0264410X11013429?via%3Dihub Funny though, if this happened in Hood's family he'd be knocking on the pharmacy for a third dose and a Darwin Award.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 18:07:51 I've worked with countless teams of medical professionals. A lot of them are complete tards. I'd say they are less likely to be stupid compared to the average population, but not by much. What is most amusing is your assertion that observed anecdotes are somehow scientifically supportive of your vaccination stance. But, ultimately, I hope your convictions bear the fruit they sow: long term covid complications at minimum.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:09:32 What is your occupation? Anyways, this is up in St. Paul, MN. And they work hand and hand with Mayo, which literally does research into vaccine side effects based on genomics. But if you have a better source, I'm open to hear it.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 18:13:27 "What is your occupation?" A less retarded person would recognize how irrelevant this is. But as your actions since returning have been lock-step with who you were a decade (or more?) ago, it's not like I'm surprised.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:16:47 Ah, so not a medical professional. Got it. Glad I can discard your opinion, and clearly you are embarrassed to post your occupation. Sorry life hasn't worked out for ya. Funny you mention it, as since you last saw me I've engineered systems for a billion dollar company that is still running smoothly. Must be trivial tho.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:22:54 I think last time I was here regularly was around 2009, based on my private message history. I popped in for a couple days a few times since then, I believe. So, Hood's still loafing around here passive aggressively asserting his knowledge, of which he refuses to provide (as it doesn't exist), while I spent the last 12 years building generational wealth and a family. lmao, go back to mom's basement, flea.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 18:27:42 "Ah, so not a medical professional. Got it. Glad I can discard your opinion" You were going to discard my comments no matter my response. I could have told you I work in medical research and you'd slither around for something different. Because what I do for a living literally doesn't matter here. "since you last saw me I've" I think you mistake me for someone who cares what you do. I see plenty of successful idiots every day; I work with a lot of them. Specialization doesn't make one intelligent. "clearly you are embarrassed to post your occupation" Strange, considering I've posted it many times. But my job isn't really the issue here. Your bastardization of what you think science is and how you've let your personal anecdotes cloud your judgment is the topic. And maybe my own morbid hopes that it bites you in the ass extremely hard is relevant. But I'll quickly concede to being a supreme asshole at the drop of the hat, so there isn't really any contention there.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jul 01 18:27:49 hood is a bit rough and bitter on the outside, but all sweet and soft on the inside.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 18:29:12 Yes, but it takes more than 3 licks to get to my center, nim >:(
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:34:32 What you do for a living has nothing to do with the argument. If you had half a brain that would have been obvious. So insecure lmao. I feel bad. It was a query. Obviously I'm going to trust Mayo Clinic researchers & published papers more than some room temperature IQ kid on an internet forum from my childhood. That was never in question. What type of medical research? I work with medical researchers on a contract basis developing artificial intelligence based on novel radiomic descriptors (e.g. Haralick textures w/ singular value decomposition). We may have more in common than you think. Who knows!
Habebe Member	Thu Jul 01 18:35:28 I'd think hood being jew, wpupd have atleast one doctor in the family... I will say, Im weary of trusting medical professionals *withput question. But again, I dont think you need to be a doctor to question the vaccine within that genepool.
Habebe Member	Thu Jul 01 18:39:15 If I had two people have such reactions to say avacaados or a medication within a family, I would think hey, mabey there is something to this, Id get checked. BUT, this is so new, its probably not as simple as getting a ln allergy test.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:40:51 Yep, even without medical pros, an abundance of caution is warranted when you see a pattern. At least until you can assess the risk. Especially in my situation. When I feel like doing some work, I do it from my office. Either in the RV, at the farm, or our home base. That combined with our kids being homeschooled puts our risk of COVID at a minimum. Our interpersonal interactions are pretty much always outdoors, either in a campground or BLM land. Haven't had to grocery shop more than a handful of times, everything delivered. Although now things are mixed up a bit w/ wife taking care of our family member.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 18:42:24 "What you do for a living has nothing to do with the argument" Strange that you so readily drop it now. "So insecure lmao." You again assume that your opinion holds any weight to me. You'd think my hints that I am wishing possible death on you would indicate just how little I care about anything you say. "It was a query." Indeed. And as should have been extremely obvious, my interest in dick measuring approaches 0. Calling you an idiot? Amusing to me. Arguing about epeen? Boring. Anything you have to contribute? Doesn't enter my formula. "Habebe" Alright gramps, who let you out of the home? Let's just get you back there.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:45:26 > Strange that you so readily drop it now. I'm not dropping it. I'm still wondering what you do for a living, as I originally did. That's why I asked what type of medical research. JFC, do people you work with have to help you comprehend everything? Oof. It's literally in the 3rd paragraph. What's amusing to me is your little haughty Jew ass going up and down these forums insulting random people left and right without ever contributing to the discourse. Which is exactly how I remembered ya.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:46:41 It is within the spirit of UP, though, no hate on ya for it. Just a bit embarrassing to see :/.
hood Member	Thu Jul 01 18:53:42 When you spend 15 years with people, it is very easy to understand exactly who and what they are and any sentient person who has been here for even a little while will have realized that actual arguments are a waste of time. They've been a waste of time for years and it has only gotten worse. Why would I waste my time attempting to have actual, honest arguments with people who will refuse to engage in the same manner? About the only person I would expect a true, honest argument from is nim and he has also given up on that long ago. "little haughty Jew ass" Oh, lovely. More of your kind. BRB getting offended.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:56:28 Is that not an accurate depiction? I mean no offense. You take pride in your haughtiness (see above), and Habebe mentioned that you are a Jew. Is it the little ass part that I got wrong?
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 18:59:43 On second thought, I apologize. You did claim rights to being a giant ass and have removed all doubt in my mind. Enjoy your weekend, sir, I’m heading out for some exercise. <3
Habebe Member	Thu Jul 01 19:08:58 Hood, What a strange insult.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 19:52:52 Habebe, I've known a lot of people like Hood over the years. He's LARPing as a Jewish medical researcher in his mom's basement Googling research papers and pretending he wrote them. Fake it until you (never) make it type of thing. Whenever you meet chumps like him in person you quickly realize his excuses for not having 'honest arguments' are part of his disability. He's quick to anger online, but a soft-spoken midwit in person. One advantage of traveling around the USA is I've got to meet a lot of people I only knew online through various communities. His type is quite common. People like TC actually end up being the most interesting, which is why I'd like to meet whoever runs his account in person, and I'm willing to fly over there to do so.
nhill Member	Thu Jul 01 19:54:33 BTW it's fucking hot out there for being so late. Only made it a couple miles before I came home and took a cold shower. Feels good man.
Habebe Member	Thu Jul 01 20:25:01 No one has claimed TC to not be entertaining.
Pillz Member	Thu Jul 01 20:34:52 Sam v jergul Sam v seb Nim vs Seb Jergul vs Seb Soon Nhill v hood This may be Seb's one reprieve in weeks!
nhill Member	Fri Jul 02 07:04:59 BTW Habebe, since no one answered your question: I honestly wouldn’t want to mix mRNA vaccine w/ adenovirus vector vaccine because they use 2 different methods which means you introduce unknown variables. The top to bottom construction of the vaccines are very different so each will come with different set of problems though some will overlap.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 02 07:06:31 Also, I've never gone up to the East Coast. It's not my style. Been to every state west and south of Ohio. But I do want to make a trip to Maine this year, and if you're around we should grab a bite to eat in PA as I roll through.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 08:14:21 Nhill: A fair few studies on dose mixing now. I suppose in theory you do decide yourself to an increased side effect risk - simply because of you are susceptiblity to the side effects of each is likely to be independent - but if you are > 4 weeks between doses interaction risk is likely to be negligible. Indeed the Russian jab deliberately uses two different vectors for each dose. http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01359-3 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57636356
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 08:15:05 expose yourself. Stupid autocmplete.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 02 08:33:48 Cool, glad they are studying it! My position is based on the lack of quality evidence so far (trial of 600 & trial of 850). I would prefer not to introduce more unknowns and potential for side effects. But you can weigh that against the mounting evidence for increased immune response. Comes down to a personal choice, really. Immune response vs. side effect potential.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 02 08:34:58 FWIW I don't know if there's increased side effects, it's a postulate.
jergul large member	Fri Jul 02 08:46:38 http://www.fda.gov/media/148542/download The same number of children that did not get covid got: Pulmonary embolisms Deep vein thrombosis acute appendicitis Instead.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 09:26:58 Jergul: That's staggeringly dishonest - people get sick from other things during trials - the DVT and PE were attributed to a pre-existing condition, not the vaccine, and a condition that's a known Covid comorbidity that would lead them (in your recommendation) to get the vaccine anyway. Gosh that's really scraping the barrel.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 09:29:11 When you say "instead", that implies a direct casual relationship. Because they got the vaccine, these conditions occurred, instead of getting Covid. The report clearly says they aren't attributed to the vaccine. So that's an actual lie jergul. Do you want to reformulate?
jergul large member	Fri Jul 02 17:39:29 Seb I am not sure what the baseline is for pulmonary embolisms, deep vein thrombosis and accute apppendicitis for the group in question. How many would normally gotten that in the 3 month period in question? Perhaps a couple. Causation can be demonstrated using statistics this way in a phase III study. Like for example it showing that people don't get covid if vaccinated. Or that they do get pulmonary embolisms. Those were just a couple of the serious side effects btw. There are others. I trust you saw them now that you read the report.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 17:52:49 Jergul: "How many would normally gotten" You seem to be assuming the trial participants are fully representative of the general population in terms of comorbidities and other conditions. We are in a pandemic - who do you think are most likely to volunteer for trials? "Causation can be demonstrated using statistics" Possibly, but you are making one hell of an assumption. And over can look at the statistical likelihood of an individual with a condition being likely to have a particular event coincidentally after being vaccinated and seeing if that's unlikely. Essentially, you are making the same error as Andrew Wakefield. "Those were just a couple of the serious side effects btw" Another lie - those were not side effects because they were attributed to other causes. Given the PE was in someone with diabetes, which is a high risk factor for Covid, even if you attribute the (non fatal) PE event to the combination of the vaccine and diabetes, is this more risky than acquiring COVID while having diabetes? Jergul, this is grade A bullshittery.
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 17:58:36 Or to put it another way: Earlier I think you argued the risk to "otherwise healthy" children from COVID was zero. How many "otherwise healthy" children in the trial experienced an adverse event? It's none. All adverse events
Seb Member	Fri Jul 02 18:00:15 All serious adverse events could be explained by underlying pre-existing conditions. And none were fatal. Though Covid in such cases can be.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 02 18:41:16 Then we can conclude Nim (and any other parent) is correct in avoiding the vaccine for his kids at this point in time. Presuming 3 things: no pre-existing conditions, the likelihood of COVID being low (a reasonable presumption if they’ve successfully avoided it for over a year), and ignoring any societal effects. With those conditions, the safest route is to not get it. Missed anything?
jergul large member	Fri Jul 02 21:49:20 Seb The trial and the FDA assumes the children are representative of their group as a whole. Long duration facial palsy and very adverse pscycotic episodes were not attributed other factors. The FDA suggested other factors may play a role. Children's motivations for joining vaccine trials have been studied. The ethics are questionable as there is always an element of extortion or reward involved. In this case, the implicit promise of more freedom sooner if vaccinated. So kids wanting to be more free would be the ones joining the trial. You seem to forget that it is 100 certain get a vaccine if vaccinated in the trial vaccine and 1.8% chance of aquiring covid during the trial period if not vaccinated. I did not argue otherwise healthy children had a 0 risk from covid. Many would undoubtably experience side effects if infected. Quite a few, if not most, children have pre-existing conditions of one sort or another. The study actually almost suggested adhd was a factor in adverse effects. Again. A 1.8% chance of getting covid in the trial period if not vaccinated. 100% chance of getting a vaccine if vaccinated. You do the math :). Nhill That alas is not true. The element of extortion inherent to vaccine passports is pretty strong. Children should get vaccinated if they want to travel before they are adults. But that demand is against their medical best interests. The ethics of all this suck.
jergul large member	Fri Jul 02 22:59:38 Ultimately the risk cannot be measured against that of covid, but rather against the social costs that have to be paid if the child is unvaccinated. Is it worth it not to see the grandparents, or not have child care? Or should the vaccine be risked anyway?
Seb Member	Sat Jul 03 04:49:01 Jergul: No, clinical studies do not assume that the group is representative in terms of every possible pre-existing condition. "Long duration facial palsy" What the report actually says "Bell’s Palsy/Facial Paralysis/Facial Paresis: No additional cases were reported since those described in the original EUA". Psychotic episode doesn't appear at all. Mining the data for anything you can find to justify your position and then attributing it to the vaccine even when the study has rejected a casual relationship is *exactly* the basis on which the anti-vax movement has exploded over the last few decades. Nhill: "Presuming 3 things: no pre-existing conditions, the likelihood of COVID being low (a reasonable presumption if they’ve successfully avoided it for over a year), and ignoring any societal effects. With those conditions, the safest route is to not get it." Seems somewhat contradictory of the basis for doing so is the adverse reaction that jergul is pointing to, which manifested with people with pre-existing conditions. That's the problem though: you don't need the vaccine until you do.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 03 07:13:59 Seb This study took particular care being representative. Check the link. It delves deeply into the demographic composition. Mining data? By that you mean reading the FDA document? Mining data sure sound omnious, I'll give you that. http://chi...e-recipients-facial-paralysis/ You may want to read the document again. You seem to struggle with retaining information. Remember that all I am debunking is your unfounded claim that the children are not demographically representative. Maybe anti-vax movements would not explode if the ethics of vaccination were better grounded and better defended. You are the one that made this a huge issue. My point remains that the ethics suck. Food for thought, eh? You have managed to create a number of vaccine sceptics (in the case of children) in this forum.
Seb Member	Sat Jul 03 10:45:35 Jergul: How many facial palsy cases in the phase III data for the trials on under 16s? They mention it repeatedly as a thing they are looking for, but no cases. They say that specifically. There were more cases than in placebos on the adult phase III trials. No casual relationship could be established, they've been monitoring it since, and in pharmacovigilence follow up, it's never been shown to statistical significance to be above what you would expect. So: 1. We have a few cases in a large phase III trial for adults that was not attributed to the vaccine. 2. We have the failure to find any statistically significant evidence for facial palsy as a side effect in pharmacovigilence follow up after many many millions of adult vaccinations. 3. We have no incidences in the phase III trials for children 12-15 Jergul: dOn'T gIvE VacIne t0 KiDs... tHeIR FacE FrEezEs.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 03 14:36:20 Seb Jergul: Give vaccine to kids. The coercive powers of the State and society at large dictate that you must. Just be aware that the ethics suck and that vaccinating children is generally against their medical best interests. Seb: I, the mighty technocrat, must enrage people with untruthful technobabble so that I may feel virtuous as I see myself increasing surrounded by vaccine sceptics.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 03 14:41:35 That was a pretty good burn if I say so myself :D
Seb Member	Sat Jul 03 16:09:36 Jergul, you literally just claimed the phase III trials in children showed the valve produced facial palsy and pulmonary embolism; when they showed the reverse. Untruthful technobable is your métier.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 03 18:37:15 "métier" You can't help yourself, can you? "Bell’s palsy has previously been noted as a complication of meningococcal, hepatitis B, smallpox and influenza vaccination (seasonal and H1N1)" "it should be noted that the control groups used for comparison were not inert placebos, but one group using “other viral vaccines” and one group that received influenza vaccines" "It’s well-known that Bell’s palsy is an adverse effect following vaccination, so all the study found is that COVID-19 vaccines do not increase the risk above and beyond that of other viral vaccines" "This isn’t to say that cases weren’t reported, however. Out of 133,883 adverse drug reactions reported following mRNA COVID-19 vaccines reported to VigiBase on March 9, 2021, the researchers identified 844 facial paralysis-related events, including (some of the cases reported multiple adverse events)" "Adverse events are notoriously underreported to VAERS and other pharmacovigilance databases, which rely on mostly voluntary reports, making it difficult to draw population-wide estimates from their data" "In a study using data from nearly 49,000 people between the ages of 11 and 21 years, Hung-Fu Tseng, Ph.D., from the Southern California Permanente Medical Group in Pasadena, California, and colleagues evaluated the safety of quadrivalent meningococcal conjugate vaccine. A significantly increased risk of Bell’s palsy was found when the vaccine (Menveo) was given along with another vaccination. The condition typically occurred five to 10 weeks after vaccination. Overall, the risk of Bell’s palsy increased 2.9-fold in the 12 weeks after vaccination among those administered concomitant vaccines" ========== Its a known thing that has to be accounted for when vaccinating children and particularly if considering mixing and matching vaccines. The study's cut-off helpfully avoided the period when palsy occurs. Some weeks after the second vaccination.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 03 18:42:36 Seb Seriously, you do get that all you are doing now is fueling vaccine sceptism, right? There are huge ethical issues with vaccinating children. Just leave it at that. The more people know about vaccines, then less they will be prone to want them.
Habebe Member	Sat Jul 03 20:25:03 frankly, we’re lucky we have the vaccine. But the vaccine on very young people is something that you gotta really stop,” Trump inexplicably said. “You have to get back to running your country—I mean, I don’t see reasons—and I am a big believer in what we did with the vaccine. It’s incredible what we did. You see the results. But to have every school child, where it’s 99.99%, they just don’t—you know, they’re just not affected or affected badly. Having to receive a vaccine I think is something that you should start thinking about, because I think it’s unnecessary.” Jergul agreed with Trump. The world may near be at dits end.
jergul large member	Sat Jul 03 21:11:07 Trump thinks its wasteful. I think its unethical. I also think that children should be vaccinated. The full coercive power of society and state insist. So, no. The world will stagger on.
nhill Member	Sat Jul 03 23:11:31 Not part of the discussion here, but I’m glad our medical team recommended our kids to not be vaccinated after reading it. Safest move in our situation, even ignoring the reactions.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 04 00:28:10 Why would not that or you be part of the discussion here?? Abandon all hope ye who enter here.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 04 00:31:55 Prolly the correct call now since it is objectively the correct medical call, but wait until the coercive powers of society and state mobilize, then review.
nhill Member	Sun Jul 04 00:38:25 I am trying to avoid being drawn into a Seb, please pay me no mind.
nhill Member	Sun Jul 04 00:46:28 However, to your latter post, I am of a similar mind. Enjoy your day, sir. Going bed and then enjoying the holiday.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 04 13:12:56 Jergul: Temporary facial palsy is associated with navy types of vaccine including flu. Covid is more serious than flu in children 12-15. Presumably you are ethically opposed to seasonal flu vaccination campaigns also?
Seb Member	Sun Jul 04 13:17:02 Sure, I'm the one fuelling vaccine hesitancy by trying to make the case that the vaccines haven't met the same clinical safety thresholds as those approved under normal regimes, and hyping up obscurely rare side effects accepted for less serious diseases, and suggesting regulators are corruptly authorising vaccine use for political purposes.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 04 16:59:44 The unknown long term impacts on children that we would be worrying about is of the disease. http://www...e-cause-concern-scientists-say "Although children are relatively less likely to become infected, transmit the virus and be hospitalised, the key question is whether even mild or asymptomatic infection can lead to long Covid in children, said Danny Altmann, professor of immunology at Imperial College London. “The answer is that it certainly can, and the long Covid support groups contain a not insignificant number of children and teens,” Altmann said." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/ "Children seem to be fairly well-protected from the most severe symptoms of covid-19. According to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, the majority of children don't develop symptoms when infected with the coronavirus, or their symptoms are very mild. However, it is becoming increasingly apparent that a large number of children with symptomatic and asymptomatic covid-19 are experiencing long-term effects, many months after the initial infection." http://theconversation.com/long-covid-in-children-what-parents-and-teachers-need-to-know-156185 "How long COVID affects children Research on long COVID in adults has revealed a long list of symptoms. Early evidence suggests that many of these are also shared by children. In the Italian preprint, symptoms often found in adults – such as fatigue, muscle and joint pain, headache, insomnia, respiratory problems and heart palpitations – were reported frequently in children. A separate, larger preprint – which surveyed the parents of children with long COVID, predominantly in the UK and US – found similar results. Across a sample of 510 children, tiredness and weakness (87%), headaches (79%), abdominal pain (76%) and muscle and joint pain (61%) were common. Gastrointestinal symptoms were also reported relatively frequently, as were skin complaints such as rashes. A tired child looking out the window As with adults with long COVID, fatigue is also a common symptom in children. altanaka/Shutterstock This paper also suggests a number of neuropsychiatric features may manifest in children with long COVID: 61% of children had trouble concentrating, 46% difficulty remembering information, 33% difficulty processing information and 32% trouble finding the right words when speaking. Unexplained irritability was common too, and may be associated with ongoing inflammation in the brain, though this could also be an understandable response to being unwell. While many children develop long COVID as an immediate consequence of the virus, the international paper suggests that for some there may be a hiatus between the end of the acute infection and the start of long COVID. One in five of those surveyed had a period of wellness after their infection. The Italian paper also suggests that COVID-19 can have long-term effects in children who are asymptomatic or have minimal symptoms."
Seb Member	Sun Jul 04 17:01:10 This is why regulators are recommending vaccination. Jergul may Witter on about the coercive power of the state, but vaccination is not mandatory.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 04 19:34:10 We don't recommend vaccinating healthy children for the flu here and do not recomment vaccinating children against covid 19. 5-10% of the population gets the flu. Of course I dont think healthy kids should be vaccinated against something they wont get and would not be hurt by if they did get it. The survey you cited queried parent of long haul covid kids. All 510 of them. That is Munchhausen by proxy levels of rapporting. The rampant speculation there puts fb antivaxers in a bad light. They need to step up their rumour, innenuendo and bad science game. Feel free to authorize covid at any time if you feel the producers can deal with the liability claims.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 04 19:35:54 Laughable that you even question that society and state coercive powers are the ony real reason to vaccinate otherwise healthy children.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 04 19:36:58 Poll After glancing in this thread, do you feel Seb has Convinced you to vaccinate children Or Convinced you not to
Seb Member	Mon Jul 05 16:34:15 http://ine...aturally-jab-dangerous-1080768 “This is not a benign virus,” Professor Stephen Griffin, a virologist at Univeristy of Leeds told i. “We know there’s something like eight or nine per cent of hospitalisations [are children] at the moment.” We do not fully understand the long term implications of severe disease in children or the impacts of long Covid and there have already been reports of neurological damage and damage to the heart and lungs, even in very mild cases, Professor Griffin said. Here are some of the other countries already vaccinating children against Covid-19: Denmark will vaccinate children aged 12-15 France has started vaccinating those from 12 years upwards, provided they have parental consent Austria aims to have over 340,000 children aged 12-15 vaccinated by the end of August, according to news site Vindobona Italy on May 31 approved extending the use of Pfizer’s vaccine to 12-15 year olds China on June 5 approved emergency use of Sinovac’s vaccine for those between three and 17 Singapore opened up its vaccination programme to adolescents aged 12-18 from 1 June The US began vaccinating young adolescents in mid-May In early May, Canada approved use of Pfizer’s vaccine for use in children aged 12-15
Seb Member	Mon Jul 05 16:34:33 Unethical my arse.
Seb Member	Mon Jul 05 16:35:03 But hey, you do you jergul.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 05 17:12:12 Seb Nice of you to broaden the scope to just pure speculation. We do not fully understand the long term implications of the vaccine on children either. How could we? Neither the virus, nor the vaccines have been around long enough for that kind of data to be known. And in the case of vaccines, who would even want to find out (pay for large studies)? Now, don't be sad. The advent of vaccine passports will coerce the vaccination of children, so you will have your way soon enough.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 05 17:15:26 http://www.bbc.com/news/health-55586994
Seb Member	Tue Jul 06 03:28:18 Jergul: " and there have already been reports of neurological damage and damage to the heart and lungs, even in very mild cases, Professor Griffin said." Speculation, of course.
obaminated Member	Tue Jul 06 09:22:51 Kids I coach on the side have told me about having a litany of side effects from the vaccine. Some complain about having a shoulder ache for a few weeks, others say they got really sick for a few days and kid literally had a magnet attached to his shoulder. The other coach is super anti Vax and had seen a youtube video about it so he brought magnets to test it and yeah. A kid got out of the pool he put it against his shoulder and it stuck, the kid said he could feel something pulling. So shitty untested vaccines have shitty side effects.
Seb Member	Tue Jul 06 11:55:12 Obaminated: Yeah, aching arm and feeling a bit rough for a few days is common for many vaccines. It's like a mild case of flu for some. But this is dramatically better than the increased incidence of long term issues that a starting to be seen in kids with asymptomatic or mild cases of Delta. The magnet thing is bullshit. It's physically impossible for the vaccine to magnetise you. I would say a combination of psycosymatic priming and simple surface tension/vacuum effect - smooth wet surfaces can stick to each other.
Seb Member	Tue Jul 06 11:56:47 The other two things are not a consequence of untested vaccine, that's just an immune response - which is the whole fricken point of the vaccine.
jergul large member	Tue Jul 06 13:08:46 Seb Anectdotal.
Seb Member	Tue Jul 06 13:53:02 jergul: All science starts as stamp collecting, and no, clinically confirmed reports are not anecdotal simply because they have not been compiled into statistical releases. Point is there are many clinical reports of complications in children who do not have anything more than mild respiratory symptoms (and sometimes no respiratory symptoms at all) - so we know that the assumption that mild to non-existent respiratory symptoms means children face near zero clinical risk is false. Meanwhile there is very little evidence or reason to believe there would be long term effects from the vaccine. And while there are side effects, these are rare and far better understood. So, in terms of clinical risk, the principle is to not assume that being infected with Covid as a child is benign because the disease does not manifest with serious respiratory symptoms as it does with adults; yet that is what you are implicitly doing.
jergul large member	Tue Jul 06 18:19:30 Seb Point is. Last time statistics were compiled, it turns out very few children were hospitalized. Statistics trump anectdotes. Now, at risk children should certainly get vaccinated under emergency protocols. The assumption is chance of getting covid x danger of getting covid is much less than chance of getting vaccine x danger of getting vaccine.
jergul large member	Tue Jul 06 18:23:04 The best ethical practice is to vaccinate all adults and vulnerable children, and contact trace + isolate any outbreaks in the remaining unvaccinated population.
Seb Member	Wed Jul 07 01:07:12 Jergul: The statistics of hospitalisation relate to acute conditions associated with the respiratory element, not longer term chronic yet debilitating conditions. So hospitalisation stats are not representative. Compiling statistics on the letter symptoms is harder - largely because health systems have only started looking for them recently. The fact you talk about the stats of hospitalisations "trumping" other conditions demonstrate your fundamental misunderstanding here. It isn't a zero sum game. The chronic presentation of the disease need not be - and indeed case reports suggest - correlated with the way the disease presents in terms of respiratory symptoms. It's a different clinical presentation of the disease. So when you talk about comorbidities or lack of them - "otherwise healthy children" - you've made a huge and unfounded assumption about risk factors being correlated with the evidence suggests that a lack of comorbidities or indeed presentation of the respiratory disease at all doesn't necessarily correlate with other presentations. Bottom line, what you are describing isn't "ethics", it's complacency.
jergul large member	Wed Jul 07 02:48:44 Seb "Something must be done, this is something, therefor we will do it" (to translate your technobabble) stands in stark contrast to the fundamental ethical premise of modern medicine: First, do no harm. You simply cannot ethically expose children to harm if there is not solid statistical evidence that that harm is the lesser harm. Risk of infection X danger of infection Risk of vaccination X danger of vaccination Are the two fundament equations. The something that must be done: Vaccinate adults and vulnerable children Contract trace and isolate outbreaks unvaccinated This is the best ethical practice. The rest is amoral showboating because its easier to coerce the vaccination of children than it is to get the last reluctant 40% of adults to do their bit.
Seb Member	Wed Jul 07 03:58:08 Jergul: That's a very strange framing. We know there's a risk of long term chronic illness in children. We don't know the full extent of these conditions, we don't know the exact proportion of children effected, we do know it is much more likely than severe illness. We know the vaccine appears to offer some protection against this, and we know that it appears to reduce transmission among children. We know there are low risks of short term side effects from the vaccine, few of which are classed as serious. This is hardly taking some uncorrelated action unlikely to address the issue. "vulnerable" This word either assumes comorbities for long Covid conditions are identical to acute respiratory symptoms (we know they are not) or that there are no children vulnerable to long Covid (we know there are not). This is very strange logic that says: We know group A, amongst which some subset N have a high risk of developing condition X. We also know that people in group A have a risk of developing condition Y. It follows that anyone not in subset N has no risk of developing condition Y. QED. This is clearly bilge. Look if you would prefer some quite high (10% of mild symptomatic cases say) risk of your child getting what appears to be a long term neurological condition with symptoms akin to depression because you are worried about a sore arm, a few days of symptoms like a bad cold, or a vanishingly small risk of temporary facial paralysis, that's your choice as a parent. But it's ridiculous and unscientific to suggest that goal regulators are throwing ethics out of the window.
jergul large member	Wed Jul 07 05:36:37 Seb We know there is *a* risk of long term effects for some children from both the vaccine and the virus. We know that almost all children are invulnerable to long covid. We know that group A has some risk of developing X from covid We know that group A has some risk of developing Y from the vaccine. X is as likely as Y for A X is worse than Y for A Therefore vaccinate We know that group B has some small risk of developing X from covid We know that group B has some risk of developing Y from the vaccine. X is less likely than Y for group B X is better than Y for group B Therefore do not vaccinate. I am always glad to help you keep track of things. Signs of depression is pretty much scraping the barrow in terms of trying to justify unethical practices. Hey kid, are you happy you were sick and had to isolate? No? Well, that is obviously a symptom of neurological, long term damage. I am suggesting the goal of the regulators is to keep the boomers safe and shopping at virtually any price.
Seb Member	Wed Jul 07 06:48:01 jergul: "We know that almost all children are invulnerable to long covid." We do not know that, long covid symptoms are being seen in c. 10% of cases of mild cases (i.e. so the group we accept getting infected and not vaccinated because they aren't going to end up in hospital on oxygen if we were are operating on the basis that coivd-19 only causes respiratory disease) with the delta example. And that is because it is now being looked for. Where a child presents asymptomatically, long covid symptoms can be misdiagnosed as e.g. anxiety related to the broader situation. Studies indicate something like 70-75% of children infected fall into the mild symptomatic category (c.20% asymptomatic, very small number with serious conditions, and those very unlikely to die). So we are looking at c. 7% of infected children with long covid. "We know that group B has some small risk of developing X from covid X is less likely than Y for group B X is better than Y for group B" We do not know that X is less likely than Y - in fact the evidence suggests that X (long covid) is very much more likely. We do not in fact know that X is better than Y. All evidence suggest in some cases X is worse, we also don't know how long X persists for or if it is cureable, whereas Y is temporary and easily treated. This is why many regulators have made the decisions they have made. "Signs of depression is pretty much scraping the barrow in terms of trying to justify unethical practices." That's right jergul, it's one giant medical conspiracy with GP's and regulators and public health bodies trying to unethically push vaccines that harm more than mitigate risk in order to protect the boomers - I mean you are not quite up there with Obaminated's claims that the vaccine makes turns you into bargain bin version of magneto, but it's not far off if you stop to think for it for more than a minute.
obaminated Member	Wed Jul 07 09:14:52 Seb, when is the last time you were right about anything related to covid?
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