Utopia Talk / Politics / Wuhan lab leak:New evidence

habebe Member	Thu Aug 05 19:03:59 http://youtu.be/fgAl0uSB9cA Now this is Sagaar enjetis take of things.Some of it is opinion, the new evidence is what it is, there is a link to the article, I encourage you not to take his word for it, but to read the evidence and decide for yourselves, as does he.
habebe Member	Thu Aug 05 19:10:50 I cant copy the link for some reason.But it's at the bottom of the page of the YT video I linked above.Its a .pdf file abput 13 MB if your interested. I have downloaded it but not yet read it. If desired I can probably copy and post the file here, but it is probably long.
habebe Member	Thu Aug 05 19:19:42 http://www...&v=fgAl0uSB9cA&html_redirect=1 I think I was able to link it to the PDF above.Hope it works.
habebe Member	Thu Aug 05 19:26:00 http://gop...to-origins-of-covid-19-report/ I beleive this to be a press release of said PDF report with highlights.Im just doing some quick Google research so, Ive not yet read through this thoroughly, but Ive attempted to be as transparent as possible. Below is a C/P of the press relief Ive linked above. ------------------------ McCaul Releases Addendum to Origins of COVID-19 Report Press Release 08.01.21 Media Contact 202-225-5021 Washington, D.C. – House Foreign Affairs Committee Lead Republican has released an addendum to his Origins of COVID-19 report released in September 2020. The addendum outlines evidence that points to the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) as the source of the outbreak, and outlines some of the many steps researchers at the WIV along with Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance took to cover up the research being done there. It also breaks down how scientific papers written by researchers at the WIV not only prove the WIV was doing dangerous genetic modification research on coronaviruses at unsafe biosafety levels, but also that WIV researchers had the ability to genetically modify coronaviruses as early as 2016 without leaving any trace of that modification. “As we continue to investigate the origins of the COVID-19 pandemic, I believe it’s time to completely dismiss the wet market as the source of the outbreak. Instead, as this report lays out, a preponderance of the evidence proves that all roads lead to the WIV,” stated Rep. Michael McCaul. “We know gain-of-function research was happening at the WIV and we know it was being done in unsafe conditions. We also now know the head of the Chinese CDC and the director of the WIV’s BSL-4 lab publicly expressed concerns about safety at PRC labs in the summer of 2019. It is our belief the virus leaked sometime in late August or early September 2019. When they realized what happened, Chinese Communist Party officials and scientists at the WIV began frantically covering up the leak, including taking their virus database offline in the middle of the night and requesting more than $1 million for additional security. “But their coverup was too late – the virus was already spreading throughout the megacity of Wuhan. Within a month, satellite images show a significant uptick in the number of people at hospitals around the WIV with symptoms similar to COVID-19. At the same time, athletes at the Military World Games became sick with symptoms similar to COVID-19. Some of them carried the virus back to their home countries – creating one of the earliest super spreader events in the world, and explaining how countries who participated in the games had reported cases as early as November 2019. “It is also concerning the scientific community told the American people for more than a year it was impossible to modify a virus without leaving a trace when this technology existed more than 14 years before the pandemic began. As this report lays out, researchers at the WIV were also able to successfully modify coronaviruses without leaving a trace as early as 2016. Therefore it is no longer appropriate for anyone to dismiss the notion this virus could have been genetically modified before it leaked from the WIV. “Now is the time to use all of the tools the U.S. government has to continue to root out the full truth of how this virus came to be. That includes subpoenaing Peter Daszak to appear before the House Foreign Affairs Committee to answer the many questions his inconsistent – and in some instances outright and knowingly inaccurate – statements have raised. It also includes Congress passing legislation to sanction scientists at the WIV and CCP officials who participated in this coverup. This was the greatest coverup of all time and has caused the deaths of more than four million people around world, and people must be held responsible.” Highlights from The Origins of COVID-19 Report Addendum There were significant concerns about the lax safety protocols in PRC labs, including from the head of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention and the head of the WIV’s BSL-4 lab. There were multiple requests for maintenance at the WIV, including in their new facility that had been operational for less than two years. Some of those requests included maintenance on “environmental air disinfection system” and “hazardous waste treatment system” – which would indicate concerns about how these systems meant to prevent lab leaks were functioning. Scientists at the WIV were conducting gain-of-function research at BSL-2 and BSL-3 safety levels. A BSL-2 lab has the same safety protocols as a dentist’s office. Scientists have been able to genetically modify coronaviruses without leaving a trace of that modification since 2005. Scientists at the WIV successfully modified coronaviruses without leaving a trace as early as 2016 – three years prior to the outbreak. At the request of WIV researchers, Peter Daszak attempted to hide his close association with the WIV while he referred to anyone in the scientific community who said a lab leak should be investigated as promoting a “conspiracy theory.” Shi Zhengli has repeatedly lied about: The gain-of-function research being done at the WIV; The People’s Liberation Army’s presence at the WIV; The timing of when she sequenced the virus that is the closest known relative to SARS-CoV-2 in order to hide what they knew about that virus prior to the pandemic; Safety protocols being followed when they were not; and Why the WIV took their virus database offline on September 12, 2019.
habebe Member	Thu Aug 05 19:31:08 The PDF is 84 pages.Its not asking as it sounds because alot of it has images and boxes to outline things, but I don't think it will just copy and paste very easily without jumbling up.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Aug 06 05:39:07 I skimmes it and I can’t find any new evidence, this is a summary of the available evidence and arguments. Some of it at least.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 06 06:24:26 This sounds like the thing that did the rounds a few weeks ago which was filled with weird and not very compelling stuff like "they took their database down in the middle of the night" - which tends to be when you do take databases down for maintenance so as not to disrupt working hours. This happens quite a lot. I'm not sure that anyone has said the wet market was the source of the disease, just an early super spreader event. Indeed some of the reason for thinking it was natural is that it seems to be some evidence of rural spread before it arrived in the city; the opposite from what you would expect if it leaked from the lab; where you would expect clusters in and around the lab or in some way linked to it via geographic or social connections.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 06 06:27:00 "There were multiple requests for maintenance at the WIV, including in their new facility that had been operational for less than two years. Some of those requests included maintenance on “environmental air disinfection system” and “hazardous waste treatment system” – which would indicate concerns about how these systems meant to prevent lab leaks were functioning." Equally, regular investment in maintenance of these systems is a hallmark of good practice. Thought experiment, if you had been told "no maintenance work had been carried out on the environmental air disinfection system" or "hazardous waste treatment" since the lab was opened; would that not be taken as potential evidence of disrepair, corner cutting and unmanaged risks?
Seb Member	Fri Aug 06 06:30:00 "Shi Zhengli has repeatedly lied about:" This seems to be a statement that is based entirely on the assumption that the reports authors interpretations are objectively correct (indeed, necessarily follows *if* they are correct) but which cannot be used to buttress the case of that they *are* correct.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 09:31:00 I havn't yet gone over the info much, I ended up having my nieces over for a sleep over in the living room with a 2 and 5 year old and binge watched some ninja turtles, and my back didnt take to well the couch...lol Seb, This was released on august 1st.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 10:06:25 "not very compelling stuff like "they took their database down in the middle of the night" - which tends to be when you do take databases down for maintenance so as not to disrupt working hours. This happens quite a lot." Apparently, it still has not been put back up, at least the part listing individual samples.....seems like really long for regular maintenance. "I'm not sure that anyone has said the wet market was the source of the disease, just an early super spreader event. " Well at the very least, many media had at one time been claiming that was the the most likely source with the evidence we knew then, its been 2 years...whonsaid what then is fuzzy. As for the investment, I dont think its the fact that the investment was needed, but why? Is it normal to replace the air filters in that sort of lab after 2 years? I'm honestly asking, I'm ignorant what sort of maintenance is common practice im such environments. If anything, politically, this is the house minority stating thwir official conclusion after their investigation basically saying the preponderance of evidencein their opinion shows it was accidentally leaked fromnthe wuhann lab prior 9/12/2019 and that US citizens working in the lab were part of a cover up for the CCP, not sure if that meets the legal definition of treason, but in the court of public opinion ot looks bad.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 11:09:10 "This seems to be a statement that is based entirely on the assumption that the reports authors interpretations are objectively correct" Ive lightly skimmed it so far, the only time Ive read so far that Shi lied was in claiming that the PLA didnt have military researchers lab. Can we confirm that military researchers were working at the lab? If so, Shi lied. I havnt got to any other mentions of Shi yet.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 11:10:44 Also, when I said US citizens, hat means Peter Daszyck (sp) which we already knew he was a shady a character, but now he will be compelled to testify to Congress.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 11:20:15 I will also point out, just as with the Kashoggi case, we should not give much credit to their unverified conclusions. If you remember, Biden was touting "new evidence" that US intel agencies concluded that Saudis higher ups had Kashoggi murdered, but in that case they offered zero evidence as it was all classified. US government agencies have a history though of classifying things that probably dont need to be classified.It often comes out later in freedom of information act lawsuits. But clearly we have more evidence that covid 19 came from an accidental lab leak than the Prince ordered the death of Kashoggi.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 13:14:34 The more I read about this, I think this puts Peter Dazack in the worst light. I mean, the military catching thisnin Wuhan, satelite data showing massive spikes in September and October in surrounding hospitals.to the WIV, bad for China, but we already knew they were not being forthcoming. Much more detail about Peters role in complicity.
Seb Member	Fri Aug 06 13:59:36 Habebe: "Apparently, it still has not been put back up," Wouldn't you simply remove the relevant entry? "many media had at one time been claiming that was the the most likely source" Always go back to primary source. Media often screws technical stuff up. But yes, some early possibilities was that the transfer occurred in a wet market, as it brings weeks animals, domesticated animals and humans together - but I think the media latched on to the idea that the first major outbreak being in a market meant the disease occurred there - which was a bit unlikely. "Is it normal to replace the air filters in that sort of lab after 2 years?" I don't know. I'd guess regular inspection and replacement of parts would be a key element of the safety regime. The point I was making is that the absence of that baseline information immediately smells of someone working back from a conclusion which then (at best) leads them to interpret every fact as evidence to support their claim (database taken down at night, must be a cover up! Maintenance on the safety systems... so they must be broken!) - or worse, they are just grabbing everything they can to frame their preferred narrative. It's precisely this why, if I was running China, and knew I was innocent, I'd still not let American inspectors in. Especially after Iraq. "this is the house minority" Trump party people don't have much credibility outside his base, domestically or internationally. There's an incredible track record of spouting all sorts of nonsense, lies, insanity etc. Best thing that they could do to persuade people of lab leak is to shut up about it. As for Kaggoshi, pretty much every country with an intelligence agency has concluded the Saud's did it and would not have done it without MBL at least having an opportunity to block it (which is how your authoritarian approves things and keeps his hands clean). If the US agencies haven't, they need to be sacked.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 14:09:55 This is what the committee thinks likley happened. ---- Having examined the evidenced discussed in this addendum, Committee Minority Staff has put together the following hypothesis that could reasonably represent what could have occurred in the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic. In the months leading up to an accidental release of SARS-CoV-2, the hazardous waste treatment system at the WNBL was undergoing renovation. The central air conditioning system at one of the facilities needed to be renovated, which likely resulted in lower than ideal air circulation and enabling viral particles to remain suspended in the air longer. After the July 4, 2019 notice from the Ministry of Science and Technology, and prior to the September 30th deadline, researchers at the WIV were reviewing samples collected under grant 2013FY113500, held by Yuan Zhiming, the Director of the WNBL BSL-4. This is the same grant which funded: The 2013 paper reporting the first isolation of a live SARS-like coronavirus after sampling at the cave in Kunming. The 2014 paper, which was the result of collecting 986 samples from 39 species of small mammals in Guangxi and Yunnan provinces. The 2016 paper, where a second live coronavirus was successfully isolated. The 2017 paper, where a third live SARS-like coronavirus was isolated and WIV researchers created eight chimeric coronaviruses with altered spike proteins. Hu, Shi, and others at the WIV were actively testing novel and genetically manipulated coronaviruses against hACE2 expressing mice and civets at BSL-2 and BSL-3 conditions, including viruses collected from the cave in Yunnan where the miners fell ill. A defective hazardous waste treatment system and central air conditioning system would increase the likelihood of a lab employee (or several) becoming infected with SARS-CoV-2, as viral particles would be more likely to remain in the air for longer periods of time. As previously discussed, the WIV provides a shuttle for employees, transporting individuals from near the old WIV facility in Wuchang to the WNBL and back. The infected employees (whether from the WNBL or the WIV Headquarters) then traveled throughout central Wuhan, likely by the metro, spreading the virus. In early September, it became known that an accidental release occurred. Initially, not knowing SARS-CoV-2 spreads via human-to-human transmission or that asymptotic people are responsible for a large number of new cases, concern was low. Concern was additionally tempered by the knowledge that previous accidental releases from labs resulted in only a small number of infections. Still, measures are ordered in response. At midnight local time on the morning of September 12th, the Wuhan University, which sits less than a mile from the WIV Headquarters and whose medical school houses a BSL-3 lab accredited to experiment on animals, issues a notice for laboratory inspections in late September. It is likely that officials issued similar orders to other labs in the area. Between two and three hours later, the WIV’s viral sequence database is taken offline in the middle of the night. Roughly 17 hours later, at 7:09 p.m. local time, the WIV publishes a procurement announcement for “security services” at the WNBL, to include gatekeepers, guards, video surveillance, security patrols, and people to handle the “registration and reception of foreign personnel.” The budget provided was in excess of $1.2 million. 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 In order to prevent national embarrassment, the decision was made to allow the 2019 Military World Games to continue. No spectators were allowed to attend the games, but international athletes and some of the 236,000 volunteers still become infected, spreading the virus in the city. Dozens of athletes fall ill with symptoms. Since COVID-19 can infect humans without causing symptoms, an untold number of athletes and volunteers become infected, but are asymptomatic and unaware they are infectious. The athletes return to their home countries in late October, carrying SARS-CoV-2 across the world. Just as was the case in 2002 with SARS, the CCP sought to hide the outbreak, wasting precious time that could have been used to prevent the global pandemic. By the time the world was alerted to the virus spreading in Wuhan, it had already begun to spread around the world. In December, as cases begin to overload local hospitals, it became impossible to hide the outbreak. At some point in late 2019, Major General Chen Wei is brought in to take over the BSL-4 lab at the WNBL and lead the response efforts. The Wuhan Branch of the China CDC set a case definition for COVID-19 that only included those who have visited the Huanan Seafood Market, meaning that only people who had a link to the market were identified as having COVID-19. This further obscured the true origins of the virus. Linfa Wang, a scientist with ties to the WIV and who has worked with Shi, Hu, and Daszak on the genetic modification of coronaviruses, was in Wuhan in early January 2020. While there he visited the WIV and likely met with Shi, Hu, and others. Sometime after his departure on Januarty 18th and before February 6th, WIV researchers asked Peter Daszak to organize a public statement suppressing debate regarding the lab as the origin of SARS-CoV-2. On January 20th, WIV researchers submitted the February 2020 article where ID4991 was renamed as RaTG13 and which contained false information about when the genomic sequence for the virus was obtained. At 12:43am on February 6th, Daszak sent the draft statement to Wang, Baric, and others asking them to join as cosigners. Sometime before Daszak went to bed that night, Wang called him and requested that he, Daszak, and Baric not sign the statement in order to obfuscate their connections to the WIV. Baric agreed, and neither him nor Wang signed the statement. The statement was published on February 19th, declaring discussion of a lab leak a conspiracy theory, and suppressing public debate on the origins of COVID-19.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 14:22:43 ""Apparently, it still has not been put back up," Wouldn't you simply remove the relevant entry?" Why? --- "I don't know. I'd guess regular inspection and replacement of parts would be a key element of the safety regime. The point I was making is that the absence of that baseline information immediately smells of someone working back from a conclusion which then (at best) leads them to interpret every fact as evidence to support their claim (database taken down at night, must be a cover up! Maintenance on the safety systems... so they must be broken!) - or worse, they are just grabbing everything they can to frame their preferred narrative." So after reading their hypothesis the reason for mentioning the ventilation system timeline becomes more.clear. " Hu, Shi, and others at the WIV were actively testing novel and genetically manipulated coronaviruses against hACE2 expressing mice and civets at BSL-2 and BSL-3 conditions, including viruses collected from the cave in Yunnan where the miners fell ill. A defective hazardous waste treatment system and central air conditioning system would increase the likelihood of a lab employee (or several) becoming infected with SARS-CoV-2, as viral particles would be more likely to remain in the air for longer periods of time. As previously discussed, the WIV provides a shuttle for employees"-their report. "It's precisely this why, if I was running China, and knew I was innocent, I'd still not let American inspectors in. Especially after Iraq." But after knowing of said outbreak would you not have cancelled the war games?
Seb Member	Fri Aug 06 21:08:06 Habebe: "Why" If I knew I had one definite sample that was the source, it's far less suspicious and deniable and less easy to spot or prove to remove that one entry, than the whole DB. The problem with the narrative is that the reason that these things become suspicious is if you take everything else in the narrative as given, but the narrative itself can't then be proven by these facts.
Habebe Member	Fri Aug 06 21:22:16 Your way seems more likely to get caught. If they had nothing to hide why have they not reposted it? You can explain away many of these issues.But as it stands now, what evidence suggests that this is an organically created virus?
TheChildren Member	Sat Aug 07 01:34:13 rofl so u spend da whole friday night readin bout conspiracy theories? lol copium much? just cry and cope and admit it. newsflash, nobody cares where da virus comes from. rememba "mexican flu" that turns out didnt even come from mexico but from usa. rememba zika virus that spread halfway around da world and comes from brazil. newsflash, nobody givin a flying fuck!!!! did u see any country askin brazil 2 pay damages? lmao just how frikkin deluded r u peoples right now.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 06:11:05 ” what evidence suggests that this is an organically created virus?” Nothing, just prior experience with epidemics/pandemics. i.e while lab leaks and accidents are common, none have actually lead to a pandemic. On the other hand, none of the evidence you expect from a zoonotic jump that we have found with known cases of zononosis have materialized either. There is no definitive evidence either way, but for the further politicization of scientific issues.
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 07:37:47 Nimatzo, That still sounds like a preponderance of evidence towards an accidental lab leak that was covered up until it couldn't be.
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 07:53:05 Odds are we will never have 100% definitive proof.The only difference between this and previous Chinese lab leaks is the scale.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 08:46:54 I pretty much said so a few months ago. All the questiones raised are easily answered by the lab leak hypothesis, and while zoonosis os definitly possible it relies on things that while possible naturally, just less likely. Given the stakes, either way, we should be damed sure. Look at like this, no new evidence has been presented since I posted this a few months ago and back then you didn’t believe it was a lab leak, you agreed with seb.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 08:51:55 It isn’t a proponderence of evidence, it is circumstantial evidence across the board. ”Less likely” at scale doesn’t really mean much. We are bound to experience some unlikely stuff during our lives. It is way too early to get sngry with China, but far over due to be angry with the media and the science community.
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 09:07:26 Nimatzo, To the contrary. 1. There is new information.Just nothing that wasn't speculated before, as far as I can tell now (timeline shit) 2.I think youve mistaken me for someone else. Habebe Member Thu Jun 10 10:09:22 So basically from the hard evidence Nothing really screams out that this was engineered. However there are certain traits that while not implausible for nature to make may be more likely to be found in an engineered.virus-very debated* From some quick googling the two issues most frequently raised are 1.Furin cleavage site differs from the closest relatives. 2.A cluster of Nucleotides that encode agrinine. The arguments are that these are rare in wild strains, but they do exist in 5% ish of them, so plausible...but remember that means 95% dont. ------ Then the other issue is politics. China has been shady about this.from.day one, pushing to discourage reasonable inquiry. This has happened before there, in 2004 sars wqs.spread from a lab in Beijing. The attempts to cover up the notion of the lab leak for me seems be the biggest red.flags. Both from the CCP and from scientists involved in such research. Which leads me to.think 1.They know or suspect a lab leak is the cause and are.covering it up tomdave their asses/careers. 2. (More likley) they have no clue where it came from but knoe that a lab leak is plausible and could lead to alot of backlash. http://uto...hread=88212&time=1623046370009 From early June.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 09:32:18 What is the bew evidence?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 09:34:26 And fair enough, but you were not convinced it was, and I say it again, no new evidence has emerged since then. But if you believe there has been, what is it?
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 09:42:38 The new evidence from the addendum is mainly the timeline and details of the military games confirming 6 different countries reporting no covid symptoms prior to the games, but sometime before 9/12 it had been apparently leaked. I'll have to double check but I beleive they did antibody tests.So timeline shit that was suspected before.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 09:56:43 There is now new evidence though, they want a deeper investigation into it. One of the chinese ”conspracies” even says that one US athelete brought it with him to the games and then from there it spread to the world. As an alt ”theory” it has been around atleast documented on the internet for over a year.
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 10:19:45 Thw difference is we have 6 independant nations confirming the story. Loke I said things were speculated, but when 6 independant nations confirm the same story, it adds weight and clarity.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 07 12:46:25 Habebe: "You can explain away" My point is that these aren't even issues to begin with. The phrase "explain away" stats with the presumption that the scenario you seek to prove is in fact correct, that the interpretation of facts is correct and neutral, and other interpretation of facts require supporting proof. I won't be playing that game. "But as it stands now, what evidence suggests that this is an organically created virus?" Oh we've been around this in the past, you can Google it.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 07 12:49:12 Nimatzo: "On the other hand, none of the evidence you expect from a zoonotic jump that we have found with known cases of zononosis have materialized either." That's not correct, it's been found circulating in wild animals etc. The general consensus on the expert community is still natural cause, not lab leak last time I checked.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 07 16:55:10 Seb, link please.
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 20:52:56 Seb, I should re-state that part about an organically created virus. I miss-spoke. What I meant to say is that what evidence do we have that it organically spread. Labs carry all sorts of viruses, both organic and created.Either could have been accidentally leaked. We will never know for certain.But I do think its more likely it was a lab leak. Engineered vs non engineered seems like a futile exercise. Labs contain plenty of organic viruses as well.If it was engineered at most it tilts the scales a bit, but less than we think. 1. The entire point of gain of function is that we engineer very harmful diseases ahead of time before they occur naturally.As a mattwr of fact the WIV routinely collects wild samples. 2. No one seems to agree on what is a definite marker for engineering, at best we get what is more or less likely.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 04:17:44 Nim: Went back to check - they didn't find it circulating, but the high susceptibility of cats and mink to the virus is thought to point to an intermediary species/other reservoir. I'm honestly a bit bored of this now and content to wait for whatever the consensus in the literature is in a few years time. As it stands, the issue is far too politicised and no good can come of it. Any lessons on gain of function research and/or need for good cat 4 procedures is well enough known already and further cases can be made simply on the basis of this pandemic in and of itself (i.e. that a lab release could cause another one of these type of events). It is likely now scientifically impossible to prove the lab leak, and the politicisation makes it nigh on impossible to prove it in a judicial manner. The main thrust of the lab leak theory being advanced was primarily political - specifically to be able to blame the pandemic on china for US domestic purposeses. The potential for securing some kind of reparations from China is negligible. The end result will simply be to create further obstacles to collaboration and the one major lesson we should be taking from this pandemic is the need for global cooperation on this kind of event - first and foremost timely sharing of information. This means eliminating any perceived advantages of obfuscation and delay: we should be looking at how to mutualise the risk and economic costs of regional and national lockdown, minimise nationalist protection of medical supply chains, and absolutely removing any kind of risk that early disclosure comes with risks of global economic or political sanctions.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 09 04:46:41 Seb ”The main thrust of the lab leak theory being advanced was primarily political - specifically to be able to blame the pandemic on china for US domestic purposeses.” No, it was concieved due to circumstance (by chinese researchers) and as speculative as it was initially, nobody actually expected this to happen in Wuhan, certainly not the Bat lady. In fact Wuhan has in previous serolological studies been used as a control, because the urban population there has a very low exposure to bat coronavirus. One could easily argue that those incentives for obfuscation and interference are stronger when deflecting blame and responsibility for the biggest global disaster in modern times.
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 05:52:21 ”The main thrust of the lab leak theory being advanced was primarily political - specifically to be able to blame the pandemic on china for US domestic purposeses.” The main thrust that it wasn't a lab leak has been political.They demonized anyone who even questioned it. I mean if a bunch of people got radiation poisoning in the vicinity of a nuclear facility, what would the first source be that you question? Again we will never with certainty. But a coronavirus pops up in the vicinity of a lab that studies coronaviruses. If it was simple organic spread, it seems odd they would know nothing about it. People who spoke out were arrested and lied to cover up something. Now that could be as you have pointed out a way to not take political blame, but the truth is we know those acts happened, we don't know why.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 07:54:10 Nim: "No, it was concieved due to circumstance" Conception isn't what I said. I said thrust. The emphasis, weight and urgency placed on answering this question is almost entirely political. "One could easily argue that those incentives for obfuscation and interference are stronger when deflecting blame and responsibility for the biggest global disaster in modern times." That is precisely my point: by seeking to turn a question that is of some (but by no means imperative) importance for setting future policy into a blame game, we have undermined the basis for sharing information that our ability to respond to pandemics depends on. Unless you seriously believe that there is some way to get compensation out of China (ha!); or believe that compensation is better than prevention, then realistically all you do is create political incentives for economic sanctions that will damage economic recovery; and make sure that the next country that is the centre of a disease outbreak keeps really really quiet about it and hopes it gets spotted somewhere else first.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 07:55:16 Also, does the US and Europe really want to set a basis for economic compensation or some other form of political sanction for global catastrophes? I'm thinking climate here, which will easily have a bigger financial and mortality toll than this pandemic.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 07:56:56 Basically, the whole idea of seeking to establish blame and responsibility here is utterly sterile dead end and actively harmful. It can't go anywhere without China's active cooperation which isn't forthcoming.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 08:03:00 Habebe: "The main thrust that it wasn't a lab leak has been political.They demonized anyone who even questioned it." AS early as January there were entirely unsubstantiated attempts to suggest that it was leaked from a Chinese biowarfare program. The idea it only became politicised by China's denial is for the birds.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 09 08:07:18 Seb "I said thrust." And I explained that is irrelevant and indistinguishable side effect of the media suppression and unscientific activities of the scientists in the early weeks. "importance for setting future policy into a blame game" Disease escaping from a lab to wreck havoc on the world, some would say that is important for setting future policy and intrinsically connected to some sort of responsibility and blame. "undermined the basis for sharing information that our ability to respond to pandemics depends on." Trust is something you leave out of this, trusting authoritarian regimes is very difficult, but it is not without reason and rational. "Unless you seriously believe that there is some way to get compensation out of China" The problem is that because you yourself adopted a position stripped of nuance so early, everyone that disagrees with you looks like they hold an extreme position. I was the first one to my knowledge (in the world) to conceded that if the lab leak is true, then China was unlucky that it happened in a Chinese lab and not a US lab, or a British lab etc. But if we push aside all the politics (notice your entire last paragraph was about the political fallout and economic risks) you are voicing, scientifically or to color future risk assessments and create better processes for work with dangerous vectors, it is of great value to figure the if and how of the lab leak.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 09 08:27:10 "It can't go anywhere without China's active cooperation which isn't forthcoming." So hypothetically, a country accidentally leaks a virus, lies about it and you shrug and consider it water on the bridge. If you want to argue that political and geopolitical reality is more important that the scientific truth here, then say it, your arguments make a whole lot more sense then. And truthfully, you gave up the scientific high ground, when you said the letter Anders et. al. signed was somehow scientific. You know the same letter that Peter D. signed, and that the Lancet had to apologize for, failing to do due diligence on conflict of interest. The same Andersen that thought the genome looked evolutionary impossible two weeks prior. And no, no evidence was presented by Andersen or anyone else to date to match the certainty of either the letter or the paper. You underestimate the norms that emerge in an international workplace. You don't talk politics, you don't talk about contentious issues. Put 2 and 2 together to figure out how these norms entangle with geopolitics and media narrative driven by aversion for an orange dude.
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 08:31:44 "AS early as January there were entirely unsubstantiated attempts to suggest that it was leaked from a Chinese biowarfare program." There are also claims it was probably aliens.I never said it was ONLY politicized by their denial.My point was that either in favor of either form of spread has been politicized from the beginning. That doesn't change the facts. If 10k people surrounding a nuclear plant and its employees suddenly became sick with radiation poisoning, what would you think happen? Wouldn't people suspect it came from the facility with radiocative material? As it stands now, there is more evidence to suggest a lab leak than it came from a bad or a snake.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 09 08:38:45 Seb "The idea it only became politicised by China's denial is for the birds." I don't think anyone when prompted thinks the politicization is the result of only one thing. There is inherent suspicion towards authoritarian regimes and their relationship with truth and transparency. There is another layer because it happened near a lab. If this had happened near a US lab, everything would be as it is now, but we would have 100 times more conspiracies. One where it was Aliens, another the CIA, one a Mossad false flag operation etc. I don't think who observed the aftermath of 9/11 doubts that. _Any_ sufficiently large event will be politicized, politics is the new religion.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 08:59:35 Nim: "And I explained that is irrelevant and indistinguishable side effect of the media suppression and unscientific activities of the scientists in the early weeks." Well, you are wrong. Overwhelmingly, the emphasis being placed on the exact origin are about blame and responsibility. It is not hugely important from a pandemic response or lessons learned perspective as we know both mechanisms can cause outbreaks. "Disease escaping from a lab to wreck havoc on the world, some would say that is important for setting future policy" No, because we know it is a possibility already. "and intrinsically connected to some sort of responsibility and blame." Which is a fundamentally sterile approach and actively dangerous for actually responding to a pandemic once it has emerged. "Trust is something you leave out of this," Trust is exactly what I'm talking about. Why would any country (irrespective of regime) disclose information about a pandemic if they thought it might be used to attribute blame to them? "I was the first one to my knowledge (in the world) to conceded that if the lab leak is true, then China was unlucky that it happened in a Chinese lab and not a US lab, or a British lab etc." *sigh* that's exactly what I said in the first place: whether zoonotic or a lab leak, this could happen anywhere, so what is the point about trying to attribute responsibility based on where it happened this time? "it is of great value to figure the if and how of the lab leak." What do you think it would show? Unless it was some detail of how a cat 4 procedure was deficient by design, we already know about the risks of gain of function, and handling contagious human pathogens. Is there anything that would come out of this that would change those risk assessments? "So hypothetically, a country accidentally leaks a virus, lies about it and you shrug and consider it water on the bridge." Hypothetically, a country accidentally leaks a virus. What do you want them to do: provide as much information as early as possible so we can prevent or mitigate a pandemic - or for them to sit on it and vet it for anything that might expose them to risk of liability? "If you want to argue that political and geopolitical reality is more important that the scientific truth here" That is an incorrect framing. I'm saying liability is the problem. If the truth we are trying to get is "what exactly happened", that would be ideal. But it is clear now that the question being asked is "Is China liable". That ship has sailed, so scientific truth on either question isn't on the table. What we need to do, if we want to have scientific truth around the causes of future pandemics, then we need blanket indemnity for the country of origin. "And truthfully, you gave up the scientific high ground" You wouldn't recognise the scientific high ground if it were towering over you Nim, so you might as well not preach it at me. "when you said the letter Anders et. al. signed was somehow scientific." Remind me, which letter? Saying a letter is "somehow scientific" isn't language I would use, so this has no doubt been through some kind of Nimatzo re-interpretation.
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 09:09:38 "*sigh* that's exactly what I said in the first place: whether zoonotic or a lab leak, this could happen anywhere, so what is the point about trying to attribute responsibility based on where it happened this time?" I dont think most people are casting blame merely on where it came from, but the cover up and mismanagement. "Hypothetically, a country accidentally leaks a virus. What do you want them to do: provide as much information as early as possible so we can prevent or mitigate a pandemic - or for them to sit on it and vet it for anything that might expose them to risk of liability?" This statement doesn't make any sense. For starters, your ignoring his statement about them luring about it. If you just shrug it off as you seem to be doing, doesn't this encourage said behaviour? Your also all over the map. What exactly are you claiming? That we shouldn't find out the source because its been politicized? That there is a preponderance of evidence that it didnt leak accidentally? The new report states they think it was accidental.If they wanted to just punish China and make shit up wouldn't they have said it was intentional?
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 09:20:55 And yes, I think there should be some sort of punishment for coverinf it up and endangering millions of lives. That's not China specific.But you know I'm no fan of the CCP.You know latin, what did you think #Serica Delenda Est meant and references? I also know you to be a student of history and that reference is common knowledge.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 09 09:23:48 "*sigh* that's exactly what I said in the first place:" You don't understand, that is a good faith assumption on my part from the start. Obviously if they did this and then lied about it over and over, there will be consequences. Consider if they never confess, but we find the evidence. There would rightfully be consequences. Because how people or countries act is a good signal for how they will act in the future. Of course we can all cynically assume everyone does this independent of political structure, but that assertion does not hold under scrutiny. It isn't even possible in some systems where transparency is high and key document part of the public record. Where are the Fauci emails of China? Exactly. Equating the different systems ability to deal with this, is a non starter. "Why would any country (irrespective of regime) disclose information about a pandemic if they thought it might be used to attribute blame to them?" So, the fact that criminals rarely admit to their crime means we shouldn't try to solve crimes. "anywhere, so what is the point about trying to attribute responsibility based on where it happened this time?" Take any other subject and say that and you have your answer. For whatever reason you checked out your brain on this one. "Remind me, which letter?" Nimatzo Andersen of Andersen et al, was one of these people who signed an open letter, weeks in to the pandemic to denounce the lab leak hypothesis. Does that sound scientific to you? Seb Yes - at the time the lab leak claims were largely lurid nonsense implying it was deliberately manufactured - and being pushed by the Trump admin - as a means to assign culpability to china for political purpose. It's about the politics for you, that is as explicit of an admission as it goes.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 09 09:28:38 Your reasoning is drained of any scientific curiosity and actually resembles that of clergy, don't ask how and why, accept the ways of the lord, nothing good will come of this my child.
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 10:10:53 Also the argument that "it will politicized and used to attack China" if they were more transparent doesnt make sense. If the goal was to not make it politicized, it obviously didn't work and only fanned the flames. Very early on when we were under the impression the chinese were being relatively forthcoming and helpful there was far less animosity.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 10:52:17 Habebe: I don't know what is so hard about this to follow. The search for the origin of the virus is almost entirely motivated by a desire to apportion liability. This now makes any possibility of getting to the bottom of our impossible. Scientifically, it's not that useful a piece of information anyway. Going forward, it's clear that the concept of assigning liability is extremely counter productive as it means no country will want to share information, and information they share can't be taken at face value. The most important thing we can do is establish indemnity, not liability here. If we care about maximising our ability to respond to future pandemics. If on the other hand our primary concern is establishing "not orange mans fault, Chinese man's fault", then by all means let's keep going.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 11:12:33 Nim: I do understand, you are simply don't that thing where you preeningly present ideas common at the time as proof of your foresight. "but we find the evidence" How you going to do that, in a way that will be convincing, without corroboration? It's just going to be Colin Powell at the UN all over again. And ok, let's say you do, what are you going to do? Launch trade sanctions on China? It's an exercise in futility. I'm not sure what the rest of the paragraph is getting on about, but it doesn't seems to address anything I'm saying so will ignore. "So, the fact that criminals rarely admit to their crime means we shouldn't try to solve crimes." Firstly, even if this had leaked from a lab conducting gain of function research, that wouldn't be a crime. China would be in beach of no treaty or international law. Even if they had covered it up in pretty sure it breaks no element of international law. Secondly, when a criminal commits a crime and the state investigates, it does so with overwhelming resources and control of the things to be investigate and power to compel cooperation from witnesses etc. So there is a very reasonable basis for conducting a successful and conclusive investigation. Those requisites require on this case China's active cooperation, so the prospects are negligible. That's just a fact. "Andersen of Andersen et al, was one of these people who signed an open letter, weeks in to the pandemic to denounce the lab leak hypothesis. Does that sound scientific to you?" What part of "being scientific" do you think precludes criticising an obviously ill founded hypothesis being pursued with disproportionate effort for obvious political ends? Can you link to the letter so we can see what it is I'm supposed to have endorsed? Are you sure you aren't being confused. Kristian Andersen was a proponent of the lab leak theory.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 09 11:27:56 Though to be fair, we know that now from the Fauci emails. I suppose you are referring to this letter, assuming we are talking about Kristian Andersen. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9 The letter is published in Nature - so it's already pretty bold statement to suggest it is unscientific - it obviously passed the editorial panel at least. Secondly, what it suggests is off the table is engineering, not lab leak - indeed it offers an assessment of repeated passage from e.g. gain of function experiments in lab.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Aug 09 14:03:10 What kind of reparations should china have to pay to the world? 50 trillion?
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 17:34:46 "The search for the origin of the virus is almost entirely motivated by a desire to apportion liability." Yes, we have established that either side of the issue is greatly motivated by politics. That doesn't change the reality of what happened either way. If the goal was to not make it a political issue, this approach of secrecy has failed epically. The secrecy has fueled the flames.Public opinion believes it was a lab leak. In the US about 60% think it was a lab leak, another 25% are not sure but are open to the lab leak idea. Transparency IF it was not from WIV would go a long way to help public opinion. Australia, Japan and HK also lean towards lab leak more and more. The EU is backing the US for investigations.Although Ive not seen any polls for the EU other than sour feelings towards China have increased, IIRC Sweden is more anti China in sentiment than the US, which is shocking. The reasons are more about deliberate cover up than accidental lab leak, thats why people are angry.Even if they are innocent, they act guilty and have lied. "Going forward, it's clear that the concept of assigning liability is extremely counter productive as it means no country will want to share information, and information they share can't be taken at face value." How can you not get that people are angry and suspicious and cast blame on the fact they are covering up and lieing, if it was just from WHERE it accidentally came from India would be on the chopping block for Delta. So your method of just forget it, it doesnt matter if they lied and covered up an accident killing millions is what will cause a repeat of this behaviour. There will never be formal repreations.Just isn't going to happen. But again your mixing up two seperate acts and saying punishing either is the same. 1. An accident. 2. Deliberate lies and cover ups. The latter should bear responsibility.And for that mattwr tona degree it will no matter what in the form of anti china sentiment globally. Going forward if someone has deliberately covered up something that kills millions, that should have repercussions. If it was an honest to god accident it shouldn't. If it was die to gross negligence it should have less repercussions. Just like killing a person.Pure accidents are not criminal, negligent homicide is slightly and deliberately covering up an accident is a crime, eapecially if it leads to MORE killings. *These actions are not all the same* and if your goal is to prevent future pandemics, that is the way to go. Even Trump praised Chinas response when we thought they were being forthcoming.
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 18:09:06 Of anything Chi as actions habe one silver lining, which is that it has solidified anti CCP sentiment, only at too high of a cost unfortunately.
Rugian Member	Mon Aug 09 18:18:18 Habebe Member Mon Aug 09 18:09:06 "Of anything Chi as actions habe one silver lining, which is that it has solidified anti CCP sentiment, only at too high of a cost unfortunately." The fact that it took a global pandemic for the West to turn on the CCP is nothing short of shameful. The CCP is one of the most objectively evil organizations in all of human history, with no redeeming values. Its long level of support in the West does speak to the strength of support for Marxism in our institutions though. Too many elitists, from academics to politicians to businessmen, look upon the Chinese Communist model as a source for inspiration.
Habebe Member	Mon Aug 09 18:51:26 China currently is probably closer to an authoritarian mercantile system with a dash of marxism. But yeah, this covid spiele is far from the only thing to dislike aboit the CCP. Public sentiment in the US got so anti CCP that even Biden won't go against it.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 01:35:11 Habebe: "If the goal was to not make it a political issue, this approach of secrecy has failed epically." If the goal was to avoid giving trump a cosplay Adlai Stevenson then it succeeded wildly. ".Public opinion believes it was a lab leak." China cares about this why, exactly? As long as there's no prospect of concerted international action, American public opinion is irrelevant. "So your method of just forget it, it doesnt matter if they lied and covered up an accident killing millions is what will cause a repeat of this behaviour." Incorrect. Early transparency is the best way to prevent the next pandemic, and establishing a principle that country of origin is in any way liable is the biggest possible incentive for this. "Going forward if someone has deliberately covered up something that kills millions, that should have repercussions. If it was an honest to god accident it shouldn't. If it was die to gross negligence it should have less repercussions." Great, let's start talking about the repercussions the US faces for climate change. Seriously, this concept has zero chance of traction.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 01:36:04 *Incentive for this not happening.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 01:36:58 Worse, if the crime is cover up, the most important thing to do is make sure you don't actively look for emerging pandemics.
Habebe Member	Tue Aug 10 03:53:54 "China cares about this why, exactly? As long as there's no prospect of concerted international action, American public opinion is irrelevant." The EU has already backed US and Australian calls for action regarding the origins investigation.Are you not up to date on current affairs. Plenty in Europe and the canzuk nations, SE Asia, India, Japan all have spured towards China, a nation without freinds has some problems, and lets face it, china has spiralled downward quick, much like Japan in the 80s, their future doesnt have super power status in it. But that's another whole thread. "Incorrect. Early transparency is the best way to prevent the next pandemic, and establishing a principle that country of origin is in any way liable is the biggest possible incentive for this." For a smart guy you can be really dumb. Your still treating two entirely different acts as one in the same. If accidental natural virus made people this angry then the world would be angry at India, but its not. Even if it was accidentally leaked from a lab due to negligence, not that big of a deal, shore up your protocols. But intentionally letting the world get sick like this to cover your ass? That's a different beast entirely. But you want to set the precedent that all of these behaviors are fine. Yes, early transparency, that should be rewarded, not punished.Trump praised Xis early efforts, when we were under the impression they were being forthcoming. "Great, let's start talking about the repercussions the US faces for climate change." That's not even a clever comparison...yawn.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 04:07:11 Habebe: The EU call is to learn lessons. And if China stonewall or make minimal concessions, there's still zero chance of such an investigation being able to conclude responsibility, and without that there's zero chance of any kind of consequences. In the mean time, the lesson most countries will draw from this is that it is better to be secretive because if you don't, the US will try and pin blame on you and seek reparations.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 04:09:23 "If accidental natural virus" Why would anyone take the risk that either by error or bad faith (road mobile biochemical weapon labs!) The US would not look at any evidence and incorrectly assume not natural or accidental? If there's a risk of being held responsible for millions of deaths, what idiot ruler would gamble? Hard nope.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 04:13:06 "That's not even a clever comparison...yawn" Not really. The US govt and US based businesses for decades sought to down play risks and delay action. It will result in enormous costs and deaths, and we can directly apportion responsibility for the emissions themselves. Why is it different? Because you don't like the idea is being held to account? Any framework involving concepts of blame, accountability and compensation or consequences here is an utterly stupid approach that impedes cooperation. If it impedes cooperation, it will result in more deathsb in future.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 04:39:29 Habebe: "But you want to set the precedent that all of these behaviors are fine." This is incredibly stupid rhetoric by the way. I mean it would work great if you were on Fox news trying to give an army of acolytes talking points; but you aren't in the bully pullpit. There's just you, me and Nim here. As I have made abundantly clear, I want to set a precedent that obviates the needs for obstructive behaviour in the first place, in order to get the behaviour we need for collaboration to combat global crises. You on the other hand are looking for a country to blame (whether for the cover up or the disease or whatever) - and the only incentive that creates is for non-cooperation which hinders actually tackling the crisis itself. That's fine for a criminal system, because we don't need collaboration with the accursed/convicted. This does not work on a global model. It is dumb, unrealistic and counter productive.
Habebe Member	Tue Aug 10 04:41:13 The risk is in covering it up.China is on course to reap punishments already, regardless of the truth of its origins anyway because the real.crime started when they allowed mass infection via the war games. How is Huawei doing? Thats the sort of repercussions they will face and more.That unimportant public sentiment will see to that. As for climate change your looking for ghosts, you can blame every country in the world for continuing to use fossil fuels as well. This didnt happen decades ago by contribution of over 200 nations, these were precise actions made by a precise ruling party. Is there a case to sue Exxon? Possibly, but its also on everyome who continues to use them. No one really believes China will pay for reparations, and putside of grand gestures without teeth it wont happen. But they will likley face sanctions and other non direct side effects from an angry world We already see it happening. Its not just the US, he'll Sweden and Australia have harsher views of China already.
Habebe Member	Tue Aug 10 04:59:07 "As I have made abundantly clear, I want to set a precedent that obviates the needs for obstructive behaviour in the first place, in order to get the behaviour we need for collaboration to combat global crises." Well on this we agree. We just see different paths. "You on the other hand are looking for a country to blame (whether for the cover up or the disease or whatever) - and the only incentive that creates is for non-cooperation which hinders actually tackling the crisis itself." I'm looking to blame the culprits as a deterrent and to set a precedent. Do I dislike China already? Absolutely.Do you get your jollies off on supporting something that would piss off Trump? Absolutely. Everyone has agendas, it doesn't mean we don't have the same goal.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 05:11:17 Habebe: What real punishments? "real.crime started when they allowed mass infection via the war games" What law requires that a state prevent inbound travel when there's a disease outbreak? "How is Huawei doing?" The crackdown on Huawei started long before Covid, and the US's obvious attempts to try and convene economic warfare against China is precisely why they obviously wouldn't share information with the US: whatever they release, the US will find an angle to justify their broader economic aims. "you can blame every country in the world for continuing to use fossil fuels as well." Firstly, the US is emitted far more per capita, secondly the US spent 4 decades deliberately obfuscating and denying climate change. As you say, the crime is the cover up. So on any account, there is a much stronger basis for massive US reparations over climate change than China over COVID. "Is there a case to sue Exxon? " Exxon is a public company registered in the US. The US is responsible for its companies actions - you should have regulated it better. The question is: what do you want? International cooperation over future outbreaks, or to try and get more pressure on China? The lesson everyone will take from this is: don't give any information, and don't collect any information so you can't be accused of knowing.
Habebe Member	Tue Aug 10 05:45:20 "What real punishments?" I think Ive explained it already.If not you need to elaborate. "What law requires that a state prevent inbound travel when there's a disease outbreak?" A literal international statute? I'm not sure there is one. Nor would one be required.But I'm also no expert on international law. "The crackdown on Huawei started long before Covid" Huawei sanctions have nothing to do with Covid at all. I was only using that as an example as the sort of punishments that will likely occur. Sanctions work, Huawei is in shambles. "Exxon is a public company registered in the US. The US is responsible for its companies actions - you should have regulated it better." Cry me a river. Your alone in this view because it is silly.Better yet, take it to the court of public opinion that you think means nothing.The CCP is as responsible here as the US was for Hiroshima. "The question is: what do you want? International cooperation over future outbreaks, or to try and get more pressure on China?" Lets say next time it comes.from a US factory farm, what is to stop the US from just pulling a China if the attitude is, well, water under the bridge, no penalties.
Habebe Member	Tue Aug 10 06:00:39 FYI:Luxembourg has a higher per capita c02 emissions than the US. Im sure plenty of people/countries and companies habe played a role in covering up. VW was cheating emmisions standards. Anyway you slice it everyone is responsible.Apples to oranges.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 10 06:31:06 ”It's an exercise in futility” Finally some common ground, albeit in a totally different context. Let us summarize, not only does seb not think the lab leak is plausible, he doesn’t even think we should investigate it. Do you hear that? The echoes of the hollow sound of every time seb talked about science and his academic pedigree.
Habebe Member	Tue Aug 10 06:49:13 Nimatzo,You left out one thing, by not investigating it and excusing any and all behaviour, it will discourage future similar behavior.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 10 07:01:24 He doesn’t care, now that the UK left the EU, seb is prepared to do let this slide, so his country can buy cheap chinese shit and play China against the EU. Sacrifices have to made you see. Real politik must trample integrity. You begin to see what Jergul is getting at when he says seb has no philosophical anchor. Anything goes just give him the right incentives.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 12:35:10 Nim: Do you have a hard time understanding the difference between investigating the origin of the disease Vs attribution of responsibility? I'm not sure if you are being moronic out dishonest. But on the assumption you are merely being moronic, trace back the thread and it goes like this: --- Nim: "Obviously if they did this and then lied about it over and over, there will be consequences. Consider if they never confess, but we find the evidence." Seb: "but we find the evidence" How you going to do that, in a way that will be convincing, without corroboration? It's just going to be Colin Powell at the UN all over again. And ok, let's say you do, what are you going to do? Launch trade sanctions on China? It's an exercise in futility. Nim: seb not think the lab leak is plausible, he doesn’t even think we should investigate it. --- There's no obvious way that it follows from that thread that I don't think we should investigate the origin. So on the principle of assuming good faith, you are clearly stupid. Again, let me restate: so long as the purpose and intent of any investigation is linked to an attempt to assign blame and pursue some kind of retribution to China (or any future state), it is trivial for that state to obstruct any investigation. This is a problem precisely because: 1. Transparency saves lives in a pandemic 2. Learning more about disease origin is useful to understand how to prevent future pandemics Because all trust evaporated the moment the US govt and political figures started talking about China being at fault; the ship has sailed here. Looking forward, if you want to be able to investigate this kind of thing properly, you need to establish a clear principle of no fault. Otherwise it becomes a political and economic issue, and science doesn't get a look in because states prioritise defending their interests over the truth. Now, seriously, stop being an arse and trying to use this as a point scoring exercise.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 12:37:06 Nim: "You begin to see what Jergul is getting at when he says seb has no philosophical anchor." Lol. Go fuck yourself Nim. I'm done dealing with you, you have less intellectual integrity than Sam Adams.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 10 13:08:51 "Do you have a hard time understanding the difference between investigating the origin of the disease Vs attribution of responsibility?"¨ What a retarded thing to get hung up on. Investigating it carries the risk of blame and responsibility. Read more further down. "How you going to do that, in a way that will be convincing, without corroboration?" It was a hypothentical you dimwit. Hypothetically, if we found the evidence, after years of lies, there would rightly be consequences. That is what I said and you didn't get it back then and instead asked a bunch of autistic and irrelevant questions and now you are regurgitating once more, the thing you didn't get the first time. This idea of agreeing to not blame anyone, sounds great in theory, but it won't happen in the reality of our political systems and lanscape. None of that matters for the be or not be of the lab leak hypothesis. I won't take the time to explain why that isn't a "sterile" and "futile" endevour, it doesn't matter at this point of the conversation.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 10 13:34:31 Nim, seriously, you are over the event horizon for me. It's evident you have no interest in the substance and are just interested in making bullshit points in character.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 10 13:46:45 I am not only interested in that, no one with a modicum of honesty would make that conclusion, but why do you think your character isn't part of this? How many times do I need to tell you? You are not that smart, you are very biased and completely oblivious to the fact, all the while riding a very very tall horse. Like not enough oxygen kind of tall horse. It is very difficult to not ridicule the behavior you display. Stop doing it.
habebe Member	Wed Oct 13 22:02:50 dun dun dunnuunnunnunn
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 14 06:27:16 What has happened? I have lost track of the rest of the world since I went deeper into the blockchain :)
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 14 14:11:28 I was playing on my old phone and found that thread open.
nhill Member	Sat Jul 23 19:41:15 Maybe this one?
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