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Utopia Talk / Politics / Germans are sick & cruel people thread 2
murder
Member
Mon Oct 04 07:53:45
Germany charges 96 year old woman for war crimes because she served as a typist at a concentration camp when she was 18.

http://the...used-of-nazi-war-crimes-caught

murder
Member
Mon Oct 04 07:54:25
Did she do anything wrong?

Would it have been OK to prosecute her right after the war?

If so, what makes it an injustice to prosecute her now? Is it her age or the time lapsed since the action occurred? Is it both?

What was the maximum amount of time that could have lapse before prosecuting her that you would still consider just? What would have been the maximum age?

Do you perceive her prosecution as an injustice, or just overkill or a waste of time?

Habebe
Member
Mon Oct 04 08:05:13
This is still going on?!

Ita been slower than usual lately...
murder
Member
Mon Oct 04 08:09:48

There are strong (if not well hashed out) opinions on this matter. That's the reason for the questions.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Oct 04 08:54:43
It's because Trumpers want to keep gaslighting about how the January 6th insurrection wasn't so bad. Constantly saying BLM marches were worse because there were some random looters among the mostly peaceful protesters. Or that this lady is being unfairly punished by a corrupt government just like the "peaceful" January 6th insurrectionists.
Habebe
Member
Mon Oct 04 09:10:40
Murder, Yeah, I know.

1. She is so old that she poses.no threat to anyone but herself, falling down is now life threatening event.

So with that , it shows its a vengeance punishment.

2. Like 10 years ago ish there was a ruling that changed the game.It used to be prosecution was usually limited to the people who gave the orders or actually carried it out.

So now garbage men and cooks can be prosecuted.

I personally think this nexus where your charging a secretary or garbage man with war crimes and then you go after people who probably need assisted living just to be alive that somes off so distastefull.
Daemon
Member
Mon Oct 04 09:14:18
There you missed a chance to name the thread

Germans are just & fair people thread 2

I'm offended.
Paramount
Member
Mon Oct 04 09:28:55
I just want to say that I don't think they should prosecute her. It's too late for that now. She is 96 years old. And she was a typist, not the actuall executioner or the one giving the orders. We have to draw the line somewhere. If not, we will have to prosecute everyone who provided ink to her as well, and the ones who supplied food to the ones who provided ink to her, and that may very well lead to Americans being prosecuted, and that is absurd.
jergul
large member
Mon Oct 04 09:51:24
Para
A personal secretary. She took the dictate, wrote it down in shorthand then typed the execution orders and handed the document to the commander for signing and stamping. She did this 11000 times.

I would agree with you if she was just someone in the typist pool, but that is almost certainly not the case.

jergul
large member
Mon Oct 04 10:01:52
An additional trial was attempted in November 2018, when Johann Rehbogen was accused of being an accessory to murder. There was no evidence to link him to specific killings, and though he admitted to serving at the camp, he said that he was unaware that people were being murdered there.[30][better source needed] He was charged as a juvenile, as he was under 21 at the time of the offense. Images in the news broadcasts concealed his face for legal reasons. Being tried at the age of 94, court proceedings were limited to no more than two hours per day and two non-consecutive days per week.[31][better source needed] In February 2019 the trial of a defendant matching this description (whom Reuters reported could not be named for legal reasons) was halted after a medical report was issued stating that the defendant was unfit to stand trial, the trial already having been suspended since the previous December.[32][33]

Another Nazi camp guard, Bruno Dey, from Hamburg was charged in October 2019 of contributing to the killings of 5,230 prisoners at Stutthof camp between 1944 and 1945. He was tried in a juvenile court due to being about 17 at that time.[34] On 23 July 2020, he was given a two-year suspended sentence by the court in Hamburg.[35]

In July 2021, a 96 year old German secretary, Irmgard Furchner [de], who had been part of KZ Stutthof was arrested to be tried for war crimes. On 28 September 2021, Frau Furchner left her home in Hamburg and failed to show for her hearing, she was captured on September 30, 2021 and the hearing was rescheduled for October 19, 2021.[36]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stutthof_concentration_camp

==========

So I guess y'all can be outraged by the *gasp* 2 year suspended sentence that man got.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Oct 04 11:58:38
^ AKA a complete fucking waste of taxpayer money lulz
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Oct 04 12:03:12
Forwyn
Are you sure you do not see a value in symbolic gestures? Because I am sure you see them when statues of old slave owners are being torn down.

heh!
murder
Member
Mon Oct 04 12:19:01

Is the guy that rented Timothy McVeigh the truck he used to blow up the federal building in Oklahoma City guilty of terrorism?

Would he be guilty if it could be proved that he knew what McVeigh was going to do with the truck?

Habebe
Member
Mon Oct 04 12:39:12
False equivalent.

1. TM wasn't a state actor, definitely makes a huge difference.

2. TM planned to break the law, no such laws existed at the time.It was considered a sovereign right of a nation at the time.
jergul
large member
Mon Oct 04 12:45:24
So not only her trial, but every nazi trial is wrong in your mind.

Wow. That is a couragous stance.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Oct 04 12:53:46
"Are you sure you do not see a value in symbolic gestures? Because I am sure you see them when statues of old slave owners are being torn down."

Both virtue signalling on the public dime.

Though to be fair, the erection of most of those statues was the same.
Habebe
Member
Mon Oct 04 13:20:08
Jergul, No. Thats not what I said, but these are all factors that need to be taken into context all together, not each and every factor should absolve anyone who it could describe.
jergul
large member
Mon Oct 04 13:26:20
Habebe
Those factors were dealt with a Nurenburg. I thought we had been through this. The logic is as follows. Legislation is not the source of all law. Common law (tradition) form the basis of judges discretionary power. The expression of that power forms precedent.

Collaborating in genocide is something we all know is bad. Nurenburg and other similar process created precedent for dealing with it.

The argument you made that it was not illegal at the time is invalid for that reason, but if it had been a valid defence, then it defends not only the 96 year old, but also all nazis charged with crimes against humanity.
Habebe
Member
Mon Oct 04 14:05:39
Jergul, "Those factors were dealt with a Nurenburg. "

A few things with that.

1. Nuremburg was legality, I'm discussing my personal reasons why I find distasteful, not illegal.

2. The reach expanded far after Nuremburg, like 10 years ago to anyone who had worked at or with a concentration camp.

So Nurembourg decided that she would not be persecuted.

"
The argument you made that it was not illegal at the time is invalid for that reason"

Its invalid because they lost the war.
jergul
large member
Mon Oct 04 15:21:58
Nurenburg did not provide an amnesty on anyone not charged at the time.

It is invalid no matter who lost the war. The only variable would have been which attrocities it was applied on.
jergul
large member
Mon Oct 04 15:25:33
The legal point is an interesting one that we will likely see more of.

Things we all know are wrong, but not yet technically illegal may not give the blanket immunity people assume it does.
obaminated
Member
Tue Oct 05 09:48:06
We should go after all the Tokyo roses.
Rugian
Member
Tue Oct 05 11:01:43
Jergul's parents/grandparents should be prosecuted for being employed and contributing to Norwegian GDP during the German occupation.

Sure, they may be old and decrepit, and their prosecution might not accomplish anything whatsoever, but justice mandates that those who funded the Nazi war machine should be put on trial for war crimes.
jergul
large member
Tue Oct 05 11:58:50
Ruggy
That debating falacy would be the argumentum ad absurdium.

You are welcome!
murder
Member
Tue Oct 05 15:30:41

I'm not sure why he went all the way to Norway. It's not like there was a shortage of Americans doing business with Germany ... voluntarily.

murder
Member
Tue Oct 05 16:18:41

"There you missed a chance to name the thread Germans are just & fair people thread 2"

Listen, if you wanted to be friends, you shouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Oct 06 13:10:40
Forwyn
"Both virtue signalling on the public dime."

Well, signaling virtues as a concept is an adaptive human trait, one you are engaging in, worrying about the tax payers. It tells me we think alike on the issue. Good. That is the purpose of signals like this.

It is difficult to imagine how we would survive without signaling things like virtues. There is a mal-adaptive version of that, but it isn't inherent to the signaling of virtues. If all you do is virtue signal and fail to walk the walk, that is worthy of ridicule.

I understand that "virtue signaling" has a specific meaning in the cultural war context, but you are I think expanding it here to include the adapative things that you yourself wouldn't recognize as the "virtue signaling". Yet they are the signaling of virtues, we all do it.
murder
Member
Thu Oct 07 12:25:34

OK here is another case ...

-----------------------------------------
A 100-year-old former Nazi guard has gone on trial, facing charges for 3,518 deaths

BERLIN — A 100-year-old man went on trial in Germany Thursday, accused of being an accessory to murder for serving as a Nazi SS guard at the Sachsenhausen concentration camp near Berlin during World War II.

The trial of the defendant, who is charged with 3,518 counts of accessory to murder, was held at the Neuruppin state court, which moved the proceedings to a prison sport hall in Brandenburg for organizational reasons.

The suspect, who was identified only as Josef S. in keeping with German privacy rules, is alleged to have worked at Sachsenhausen between 1942 and 1945 as an enlisted member of the Nazi Party's paramilitary wing.

http://www...ld-nazi-guard-on-trial-germany


-----------------------------------------

murder
Member
Thu Oct 07 12:27:19

Is prosecuting a 100 year old Nazi concentration camp guard sick and cruel?

Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 07 12:45:04
"you are I think expanding it here to include the adapative things that you yourself wouldn't recognize as the "virtue signaling". Yet they are the signaling of virtues, we all do it."

One has to consider the totality of the circumstances:

They didn't round up another guard or executioner, as murder posted. These are crimes and have been crimes since Nuremberg, every Nazi has known for 70 years that they would live their lives in hiding or be arrested. We can tit for tat about whether this is generational virtue signalling.

They retroactively changed the law, recently, ergo employing state actors to trawl old records to dig up civilian employees, that had previously testified against Nazis on trial, in order to bring in retirees, who they're going to hand suspended sentences to anyway.

Yadda yadda, send a message, that's a pretty fucking sad racket
Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 07 12:49:59
One has to wonder how you can look upon this court with a straight face, after looking upon the same court seven decades ago with the guys who actually liberated the camps, now inhabitated by paunchy slugs enforcing laws that the guys who marched into machine gun fire didn't think necessary.
Habebe
Member
Fri Oct 08 20:22:36
Murder, Yes, and its just pointless.

His odds that he makes it to trial are on par a person who has stage 14 cancer.
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