Utopia Talk / Politics / The left's war on women MEGATHREAD

Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:13:37 This thread will be dedicated to the international left's (US + UK) deeply ingrained hatred of women. To start off: "Lancet accused of sexism after calling women ‘bodies with vaginas’ The prestigious medical journal has prompted a wave of anger online after a 'well-meaning but unhelpful attempt to be inclusive'" http://www...sts-quit-sexist-cover-calling/
murder Member	Tue Oct 05 11:18:12 "Lancet accused of sexism after calling women ‘bodies with vaginas’" This is extremely offensive to bodies without vaginas ... and vaginas without bodies.
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:27:14 Indeed it is.. Next up: "ACLU apologizes for changing RBG quote to delete ‘woman’ and ‘she’ By Emily Crane September 28, 2021 | 1:25pm The American Civil Liberties Union’s executive director apologized after the nonprofit was ripped for changing a quote from the late women’s rights champion Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg to be gender-neutral. The ACLU had used one of Ginsburg’s famous pro-choice quotes in a Sept. 18 tweet to pay tribute to her on the first anniversary of her death — but they were immediately slammed for replacing her use of the words “woman,” “she” and “her.” " http://nyp...e-to-delete-woman-and-she/amp/
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:29:55 Call me old fashioned, but I always thought that on-demand, no-questions-asked taxpayer-funded abortions should only be available to women. Apparently I'm wrong though.
Dukhat Member	Tue Oct 05 11:36:59 Women hate Republicans. Republicans: "Let's gaslight them even more!" Rugina and their sycophants: "'Left war on women!'"
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 05 11:42:41 Duckhat is a women.
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:43:19 The left literally wants to erase the very identity of women. Meanwhile the right simply don't want to spend government money on abortions of 39 week old fetuses. So of course, Dukhat is all "RePuBlIcAnS hAtE wOmEn"
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:48:12 "Pro-Abortion activist Maleeha Aziz at House Oversight Committee debate on Texas abortion law: “As we know, people get pregnant and not just women. But I hear people over, and over and over again, say women get pregnant.”" http://mob...911/status/1443749712486617090
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:51:08 Here's feminist outlet Jezebel claiming that it's absolutely acceptable to bully female politicians and follow them into the bathroom to harass them, at least when they hold the "wrong" political positions: "Absolutely Bully Kyrsten Sinema Outside Of Her Bathroom Stall" http://jez...ide-of-her-bathroom-1847794904 You can just feel the respect for womyn.
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:57:04 Here's another progressive argument justifying the "it's acceptable to harass women while they're in the bathroom" line: "The Young Turks condemned Sinema and supported the protestors in a segment featuring Rashad Richey and contributor Caroline Johnson. "Senator Kyrsten Sinema created this environment by refusing to connect or allow opportunity for dialogue with those that knocked on doors to get her elected," Richey said. "I think that the articulation of these activists and really, the bravery and courage that that takes is something that should be celebrated across the nation," Johnson followed." http://mob...t%2F2109102127000%2Fframe.html I can only imagine what the fallout would be if a bunch of MAGA hats followed AOC into the restroom and yelled at her while she was taking a dump
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 05 11:59:40 CDC using the term "pregnant people:" http://mob...us/1350902219172962307?lang=en Its stuff like this that really makes me want to give the CDC absolute authority during Covid.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 12:06:06 In Sweden they don't even call them people, they just call them "the pregnant". Like it is a terminal disease, you know.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 05 12:08:50 Lol. Ya, its pretty hard to trust a so called medical experts that cant even tell apart a boy and a girl.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 05 12:09:47 The west collapses in the next 30 years right?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 12:10:15 You guys are one step behind Sweden in this woke stuff, remember that, so you can use Sweden as a map to understand predict your future. The way I use the 1990's US gang violence to understand see where it is heading in Sweden :)
Seb Member	Tue Oct 05 12:10:28 Rugian: "The left literally wants to erase the very identity of women." Um, no. Lets summarise the two positions: Gender critical radical feminists believe gender is a meaningless construct - associating certain words, behaviours, clothes, activities etc. as being feminine is a social construct that limits the aspiration of women, by which they mean "people with female primary sex characteristics", with the biological issue of sex largely irrelevant for cultural purposes other than procreation etc. Transgender people are engaged in a misguided attempt to ostentatiously adopt the norms associated with female gender - they are essentially enforcing a male (in the case of transwomen) view of what it means to be female (i.e. the gender construct); a form of appropriation and definition that gender critical radical feminists fundamentally reject. Some however accept gender (i.e. sex) dysphoria, but they don't think changing your sex necessarily makes you a woman. The main issue is the erosion of sex based rights which for gender critical radical feminists are about practical protections that address them as a group with particular physical characteristics and historical discrimination based on those physical characteristics*, not recognition of a socially constructed identity. Meanwhile, Trans supporters believe very much in gender, and that gender is a matter of personal identity that transcends biological sex. They point to intersex etc. to undermine the idea of such categorisations, and that the model of two binary sexes is itself a gendering of the physical biology (i.e. that we chose to think of sex as two binary categories rather than a bimodal distribution of characteristics with a continuum (albeit a thin one) between the two modes. Obviously, these two ideas are fundamentally irreconcilable, with arguments in favour of each one. On the one hand you have the Gender Critical side that wants to abolish the concept of gender, and make biological sex irrelevant for the purposes of identity, except where the issue is absolutely central; in the name of individual freedom and liberty On the other hand you have another group that puts gender as an essential component of identity that is irrelevant to biological sex that, in the name of individuality, anyone ought to be able to identify with. In an ideal world this would be dealt with through careful tolerance and mutual respect and finding tolerable practical norms of behaviour based on specific contexts. Instead, because Anglophonic culture has become a maelstrom of angry, intolerant and frankly hysterical elevation of everything to Manichean conflicts of good vs evil and high principle that trumps every other consideration - largely driven by fuckwits like Rugian - we have a culture war instead where both side angrily demonise each other and anyone that fails to pick a side. *This of course implicitly recognises that these "sex based rights" are at least in part about gender, even if for gender critical rad fems this is a transitory path to abolishing gender as a thing.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 05 12:11:44 TO be clear: "Transgender people are engaged in a misguided attempt to ostentatiousy" - this is a summary of how more extreme gender critical radical feminists summarise transgender people, particularly trans women.
Habebe Member	Tue Oct 05 12:12:21 Yeah, the whole bathroom gate thing is over the top.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 05 12:13:16 "with the biological issue of sex largely irrelevant for cultural purposes other than procreation etc." Ah yes, we come to it again, the staple tenent of the woke left: "genes aint real".
jergul large member	Tue Oct 05 13:07:52 What cultural relevance were you thining of highlighting sammy?
jergul large member	Tue Oct 05 13:11:07 Also, genes is not the word you were looking for. We have 20k genes and 27 genes specific to the y-chromosone. Unless you meant that women have two sets of 19973 genes that men only have one set of.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 05 14:33:55 Oh god, it is becoming clear that Sam is a genetic determinist who thinks every aspect of a persons character is encoded in their genes.
murder Member	Tue Oct 05 16:08:14 "Call me old fashioned, but I always thought that on-demand, no-questions-asked taxpayer-funded abortions should only be available to women." Equal protection clause buddy.
Habebe Member	Tue Oct 05 16:12:16 "TO be clear: "Transgender people are engaged in a misguided attempt to ostentatiousy" - this is a summary of how more extreme gender critical radical feminists summarise transgender people, particularly trans women." This isn't even the worst of Sebs pick up lines.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Wed Oct 06 03:17:45 There's a big fight between "radical feminists" and trans women. RadFems don't want to let trans women hang out with them in the "women only" clubhouses. Seb's post summarizes why. Incidentally, the mediocre Netflix film "Fatherhood" touches on this in a way. The single dad doesn't get to hang out with the moms in the moms' clubouse, even though he has much in common with them. The book was better; the film basically killed the mom. She existed as a dead person, but not as a loved and cherished character, as she did in the book.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Oct 06 06:52:40 Seb I appreciate you are just describing the stake holders different position, but I felt this was worth commenting on: "essentially enforcing a male (in the case of transwomen) view of what it means to be female (i.e." People who have this position have missed 2 important things about what it means to transition. Perhaps most important of all, people who under go sex reassignment are given, in this case, female sex hormones and essentially going through a second puberty as women. With that comes all the things you normally expect from teen age girls as they are racing to the the peak of their sexual power and attractiveness. Things older women can no longer engage in and may now look down upon. Secondly, there is a compensation factor that while psychological, plays an important role in behavior. You can see this in other areas e.g people who convert to a new religion, they often go all in and it often has extreme manifestation. You can also see this perfectly illustrated in gay pride parades. It is over the top, because they felt trapped for so long. It isn't the male view of women, it is the period in a woman's where she is the most attractive to men.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 07 06:54:17 Women can be such cunts to each other. I have seen grown ass professional women stab the other in the back (while the other one is on maternity leave), lack complete understanding for each other, like one mother to another. I remember one time we took our son to the emergency room in the middle of the night, he was so tiny still and had a fever (39c) and was out of it. First child, you think everything is the end of the world, but also, if he had a bacteria infection, I knew we needed help. The female nurse that recieved my wife and son, didn't see me, talked to her as if she was an idiot, "you can't bring your child to the ER for a fever, we have real emergencies here!" Then I presented myself and like a flip of a switch, she smiled and her tone changed. What a bitch I thought. I mean understand they have a stressful environment, but manners lady, manners. I actually never took my wife seriously, thought she was imagining it, when she told me stuff like this about the girl in the gym recption, post office or whoever else that we both ran into in our daily lives, because these bitches were always nice to me, the whole thing unraveled when I saw that shit in the emergency room. Men and women, treat men and women different, goes without saying, but there are some differences. Men do not generally mistreat each other so casually like women do, because there are real risks and costs involved in doing that. We know that our brethren have a little meat head inside them, that will wake up and respond to challenges head on, especially from other men. The underhanded war that women wage on each other, it is far more pernicious and difficult to deal with. Nobody talks about this toxic femininity, conveniently the gender theorist will blame this corrosive behavior on the patriarchy.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 07 10:22:36 Nim: "People who have this position have missed 2 important things about what it means to transition." Obviously there are a continuum of views - but it depends on your choice of axioms. Some rad fems do consider post transition trans women to be acceptable, others do not because: 1. to them, simply having some hormones doesn't make you a woman 2. your lived experiences are different It's also true that transitioning is as much cultural as it is about biology and so the criticism that it is a form of appropriation of what it means to be a woman is not entirely without merit. One need only consider how society would react if we announced that racial reassignment was a thing. Providing a fully coherent explanation of why these are in fact fundamentally philosophically different and it is right to treat them as such is not a trivial undertaking. Equally there is something, to my mind, incoherent in rejecting gender as an oppressive cultural construct limiting the individual but then also fiercely defending the concept of womanhood. And there is increasing intolerance all around, where dissent from each sides increasingly narrow orthodoxy is considered offensive and oppressive behaviour to the point of a form of violence in and of itself; and justifying equally aggressive responses. Much of this feels artificially stoked up with unreasonable demands for ideological purity and a desire for a first principles approach on both sides which makes a clash inevitable given the axioms on both sides do not seem compatible if followed religiously and rigorously through to their conclusion. In reality I think it is possible for society to work through such contradictions in a way that focuses on protecting people from harm, respecting individuals rights and identities and condemning discrimination, afford the levels of respect and tolerance we would want. From this, I think, sensible moral principles will emerge. We are not, culturally, in a time that affords society that space, instead we are in a raging culture war where such things must be reasoned from first principles that are either not complete enough, or not nuanced enough to reconcile, such that when there are incompatible principles it is easier to say the other is wrong and evil. And separate to that I definitely think there is legs to the criticism that rad fems make: attacks on feminists as TERFs is to a great deal a cover for some left leaning men to indulge in a bit of good old fashioned misogyny and harassment. It is possible to condemn ideas without straying into harassment and abuse.
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