Utopia Talk / Politics / The UK must choose USA over the EU

Paramount Member	Sun Nov 17 01:50:31 The UK must subordinate itself under the USA to avoid up to 20% tariffs. trade agreement negotiations - Trump adviser published at 10:56 16 November 10:56 16 November The UK should adopt a US-style free enterprise system for trade and move away from the European Union's socialist model, says a senior economic adviser to Donald Trump. The UK is "caught in the middle" of these two models, Stephen Moore tells the BBC's Today programme, adding "Britain would be better off moving towards more of the American model of economic freedom". Such a move would "spur the Trump administration's willingness" to negotiate a free trade agreement with the UK, Moore says. During his campaign, Trump pledged to increase tariffs - a type of tax - on goods coming into the US, with tariffs of up to 20% on most countries, and 60% for China. Could the UK get an exemption? "I do think we have a special relationship with Britain," Moore says, adding Trump views Britain in a "very different way" to China. On a possible UK-US free trade deal, Moore says there will be "internal debate within the new White House", but points out inflation and illegal immigration are the top priorities for Trump. http://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn01k72d7ppt
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 05:53:49 The US can't compete with the EU as an import/export market for the UK due to the EU's proximity. We aren't getting fresh veg on transatlantic ships. Chaos monkey gonna do what chaos monkey gonna do; but it can't match the EUs offer.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 17 07:42:51 Plus the US and UK are competitors on our main exports (services) and non-tarrif barriers are the main issue. Bit of a dead end to try and pursue this in my view. Easing trade barriers with the EU is the more credible long term position. The only thing the US is really interested in is being able to get better terms on medicines and medical services by breaking up the NHS; and slashing product safety standards. The population don't want that and it doesn't help UK farming, so not much point in such a deal. Anything equally valuable to the UK that would make it win-win (car exports, financial services, legal services) isn't something Trump can deliver. And too much of the main blockers on services sit at state level.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Nov 17 09:49:46 Foreigners will pay with tariffs for our next wars against the muslims, revenge for Benghazi!
Paramount Member	Sun Nov 17 10:45:32 "Chaos monkey gonna do what chaos monkey gonna do; but it can't match the EUs offer." Maybe Trump will make you an offer you can't refuse.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Nov 17 11:44:55 The UK has no future on its current track. Other than allowing easy immigration for its small remaining high-iq population, the us should spend little time with those plebs.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 18 14:44:01 I gather, Sam, that your new secretary of state for health thinks you should take an 8 year break from research into infectious diseases. Not sure people want to emigrate to a festering petri dish.
murder Member	Mon Nov 18 16:24:34 America would be healthier if we all got sicker. You've got to be impressed by the level of stupid it takes to claim that everything we've been doing while our life expectancy increased by 20 years ... is actually killing us and making us less healthy.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Nov 18 16:44:16 In the US you might get a cold. In the UK you might be stabbed by a pakistani migrant who is classified as a superior being under the law.
jergul large member	Mon Nov 18 22:24:34 Murder Your life expectacy plateaued from 2014. Ours increased by a year since then. To 83. With yours stuck at 79.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 19 02:50:38 Sam, you've got the same brainworms Kenedy has. I'm any case, UK life expectancy is higher than the US at all parts of the income distribution.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 19 10:08:44 Wrong. At higher income brackets the us has a slight edge though it is close and some years it flips. However the sample size of wealthy brits is low... rofl. Anyway, in the US i am free to make my own healthcare decisions. I don't need to care about the life expectancy of the stupid or what some seb or rfk or other antisemite says. Thats why the worlds smartest and most innovative people move here. To get away from the blabbering incompetence of fucking retards and live a free life.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 19 10:29:24 When taken everything into account, the US system is great for childless people, especially in top tier income bracket. Euro system is better for everyone else. I paid 170 USD/month for daycare for 2 kids. Is there any place in the US where you get away with that little per WEEK? You take all of that into account, yiu know sick leave, parental leave, medical insurance etc and so on, things you will need, and vacation madated by law. I am not sure how much better off you are. And that vacation stuff is pretty important, what use is you lower tax and deciding over your insurance and having, in theory, more disposable income, if you get 2 weeks vaccation? From what I hear, even the places that give you more, you are often expected not to take all you vacation.
murder Member	Tue Nov 19 11:55:04 "I paid 170 USD/month for daycare for 2 kids. Is there any place in the US where you get away with that little per WEEK?" That depends. If you're OK with your kids getting "put to work", some places will even pay you a little. But otherwise no. I'm not sure you can find a dog sitter for that kind of money.
murder Member	Tue Nov 19 12:00:56 "... what use is you lower tax and deciding over your insurance and having, in theory, more disposable income, if you get 2 weeks vaccation?" In most jobs you don't really get 2 weeks vacation. And if you do, it's unpaid.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 19 12:52:26 Yea, I was going for the best case scenarios I have heard from people doing well. This guy has 4 weeks paid vacation, after 20 years at a company, but taking more than 2 will result in arguments with his boss. And there is this feeling that, hey, if they can do without you for 4 weeks, do they even need you?
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 19 13:05:28 Jesus what jobs do you guys have. I get 4 weeks and take all 4. My bosses get yelled at if their employees take too little. Its considered bad form to not have some work life balance. On slow days i'll work from ski lifts. On trips to exotic places you are expected to tack on a few vacation days and bring your wife. You guys need to unionize or strike or something.
jergul large member	Tue Nov 19 13:54:34 "move here. To get away from the blabbering incompetence of fucking retards and live a free life." Ahaha, the delusion. Moving to the US to get away from retards. Just wow Mr. Florida Man.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 19 14:08:51 Sam I bet you don’t live a right to work state, like Texas. You live in the north west in a deep blue state.
Seb Member	Tue Nov 19 16:50:57 Sam: "At higher income brackets the us has a slight edge though it is close and some years it flips." Incorrect. http://www...26-8a22-4db3-b43d-c34a0b774303 "Anyway, in the US i am free to make my own healthcare decisions" You are. You will still die earlier than a Brit considerably poorer than you. Such is your inalienable freedom. And I'm sure your new incoming govt will work hard to accelerate that by increasing the prevalence of disease.
murder Member	Tue Nov 19 17:15:27 What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. RFK jr is going to try to prove that what does kill you makes you stronger too.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Nov 19 19:20:27 Seb yet again cannot provide a working link. The internet is hard for you isnt it. Is this why you want a government functionary to do your thinking for you? "You will still die earlier than a Brit considerably poorer than you." Lol. You tell yourself whatever you need to. If the uk isnt a shithole - in your mind - you will feel better about all your bad choices.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 20 02:16:03 Sam: Link works just fine takes you to an FT article with the data and you can see the underlying data points and curve. "You tell yourself whatever you need to." I'm not the one making up ridiculous stories that London is some mad max hellscape ruled over by Muslim warbands. I'm not the one getting their news from a Twitter account exposed as being a grift run by two Turkish con men operating out of Dubai using AI rage bait to flog crypto to rubes. I'm not the one making up utter nonsense about national life expectancies having significant year to year variance without any source. You are the one living in denial and a stew of comforting nonsense because you cannot bring yourself to question your premises, Sam.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Nov 20 04:46:38 "Link works just fine takes you to an FT article with the data and you can see the underlying data points and curve." Wrong. Ft is a pay site. Lol dunce.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 20 07:49:28 That article is free.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 20 07:51:16 Also, "The link doesn't work" and "I'm too poor to afford a 1$ trial sub" are two different things Sam.
jergul large member	Wed Nov 20 07:57:45 Sammy How do you not know how to view articles for free?
Sam Adams Member	Wed Nov 20 19:14:59 I'm not giving a single penny to incompetent journalists. I'm certainly not doing so to read your incompetent "source". Find a real source.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 00:54:02 Sam: Like I said, it's a free article outside their paywall. Sounds like you are salty at getting caught out lying again. Remaining ignorant is a choice.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 21 10:39:59 Clicks on link, paywall pops up. Seb: thats actually not there. "Remaining ignorant is a choice."
murder Member	Thu Nov 21 10:58:49 Seb: It is paywalled here.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Nov 21 11:31:34 It is but can be bypassed. Anyway it makes no sense to compare a complex outcome lile life expectency for such a big geography as the USA with the UK. There are too many confounders embedded in geography. When you dive down those figures you will find variance in the factors that the article brings up: deaths from traffic, drug abuse and violence, which are higher in the US than in the EU, but has a higher variance in the US. Furthermore we find that states like Hawaii and California have 80-81 in life expectancy compared to the lowest, Mississipi, 75 years. Still though, the EU average is considerably higher than the US.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 17:10:21 Murder/Sam - that's hilariously sad. Sucks to be you: you have on average a 5 year life expectancy gap for equivalent income bracket and you apparently have to pay to find out.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 17:10:31 VPN from the UK
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 17:10:40 Or don't, I don't care.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 17:12:19 Nim: Same variance exists in the UK too. The statistical aggregate is undeniable though. The causes are basically "shit that the US hasn't got together"
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 21 17:14:02 Its sad that we don't have access to a shitty newspaper from a poor country that doesnt even have any good beaches or ski hills? Oh no. However will i possibly survive.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 17:21:45 I mean sure, the casual factor might be higher US traffic deaths due to poor US safety standards and lax driving tests. It might be due to higher drug abuse due to shitty US drug regulation leading to the opioid crisis. It might be due to the higher levels of violence in the US due to failure to sensibly regulate guns. When it comes down to it, all of those boil down to "People die significantly younger at all income brackets in the US because of Sam's policy preferences - they objectively suck". He may comfort himself with the fictional idea that if you step outside in London you will immediately be attacked, raped and then killed by a member of Isis, but thats a load of bollocks he picked up from a Twitter account shilling far right AI generated bullshit run by a pair of Turkish con men based in Dubai using their account to flog NFTs and influencer training courses much as Alex Jones flogged vitamin pills (sorry, tactical nutritional supplements) to the same demographic of neurotic men with low self confidence. The stats win out. Statistically, I'm likely to outlive Sam, and that's before the new govt (which we know he actually despises for being stupid, though he can't admit it without losing face) dismantles public health systems.
Seb Member	Thu Nov 21 17:23:16 "However will i possibly survive" The details are unclear, but on average, 5 years less than a UK citizen of equivalent income.
jergul large member	Thu Nov 21 18:01:20 Sammy: "Oh no. However will i possibly survive." Seb has successfully argued that you will just not survive for as long as you would have if you lived in the UK.
murder Member	Thu Nov 21 19:16:56 That's OK. Americans live too long as it is. Old people make this country worse.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 21 21:32:21 Nah, my life expectancy is just as long as any brit. A quick google shows that wealthy americans have a very slightly longer lifespan than brits, though this is measured in months only. But none of that really matters in a free country anyway. The main players in life expectancy... being physically fit and not fat... is 100% a personal choice. Also i see seb has international ignored the largest cause of the low us poor life expectancy... lol i wonder why.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Nov 21 21:34:03 Do you know how easy it is to be not fat and not OD? I have very little sympathy for those who fail that test.
obaminated Member	Thu Nov 21 21:52:20 SA is correct. No one should really pay attention to national averages when it comes to things that involve personal decisions and behavior, like life expectancy. Majority of Americans eat fast food regularly. Most Americans don't know how to have a healthy diet and as such never do. Most Americans don't bother to work out regularly or even go for daily walks to help blood flow. Most Americans don't bother to take daily vitamins. I mean, doing the bare minimum will expand your life expectancy. Only thing that can fuck you is getting hit by a truck or being the unlucky 40 year old who develops pancreatic cancer. Otherwise taking care of your body is all you need to do to help you live longer.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 07:51:46 Sam: "A quick google shows that wealthy americans have a very slightly longer lifespan than brits, though this is measured in months only." Show us then.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 07:55:16 Obaminated: "Majority of Americans eat fast food regularly. Most Americans don't know how to have a healthy diet and as such never do. Most Americans don't bother to work out regularly or even go for daily walks to help blood flow. Most Americans don't bother to take daily vitamins." You think most Brits do? Lol. You guys are way more into vitamins, wellness and exercise. Plus we drink and smoke more than Americans. The actual difference is mostly down to gun violence, road deaths and drug abuse. Two of those are not self inflicted lifestyle choices on those who die early, and the last one is predominantly down to shitty social policy in the rust belt and shitty regulation of drug firms.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 07:58:06 The great irony here being Sam imagines there's this great likelihood of being killed by an islamic fundamentalist in the UK, but in fact the likelihood being violently killed very early (e.g. in school shootings) in the US is big enough to show up in the life expectancy stats even in high wealth percentiles
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 08:01:35 And as for "unhealthy" life choices, the issue isn't that Americans are more likely to buy cheap shitty processed foods, it's that American food standards are so much more lax than the food generally, is unhealthier. Unless you are buying and eating whole foods, that affects wealthy people also. It comes down to the weaker or absent govt regulation Sam advocates for.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Nov 22 08:05:31 https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/report-examines-impact-of-alcohol-drug-and-firearm-deaths-on-life-expectancy-in-the-us/ Drugs/alcohol: 1.3 years Guns: 0.4 years This is still only half the gap.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 22 08:42:07 Americans just died eating organic carrots recently. And lax food safety standards are not going to get stricter under Trump.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 22 08:45:43 http://www...risis-international-comparison 4 times the maternal death rate of the UK. Wow.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 22 08:46:38 Norway clocked in a 0,00, so immeasurably higher maternal death rates than norway :).
jergul large member	Fri Nov 22 08:55:15 Discussion so far: Sammy: The US is almost as good as the UK if you happed to be in a very high income bracket.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 09:03:01 Nim: Oh yes, and shitty maternity services. We covered that last time, but Sam doesn't care about that because people born poor are obviously worthless because poverty is caused by genetic inferiority, so the dead kids has inferior genes anyway. Sam isn't a NAZI, he just believes in genes in a very profound way.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 09:07:19 Jergul: I'm pretty sure ecoli on organic carrots is less an issue than high fructose corn syrup in *everything*. Still, once Musk gets rid of all those pesky inefficient regulations and lays off food standards inspectors they can start using reclaimed asbestos to fill out burgers, the economic growth and increased wealth and living standards will be undeniable.
Seb Member	Fri Nov 22 09:09:37 Until everyone starts getting sick of course, but hey hey, if profits are up, then share prices are up, and capital holders can leverage against that and make up for the loss in production and demand in the stats. Number go up! Much wealthyness. Until the bubble pops of course.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 22 10:20:52 "You guys are way more into vitamins, wellness and exercise." No. Only a small subset of high iq americans do this.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 22 10:26:05 Seb is butthurt about genes existing again i see, and american capitalism too. I could see why a loser in both regards would dislike both.
jergul large member	Fri Nov 22 10:26:32 What do the other high iq americans do? Drink carrot juice?
obaminated Member	Fri Nov 22 17:33:05 Is seb literally arguing that diet and health care extends life ? What the actual fuck?
Sam Adams Member	Fri Nov 22 18:00:41 Government policy is the only thing that matters according to seb.
murder Member	Fri Nov 22 20:54:25 The key to a long healthy life is drinking lots of water.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Nov 23 05:15:16 I’m pretty sure it’s hookers and cocaine.
Seb Member	Sat Nov 23 07:44:30 Obaminated: Your level of basic comprehension continues to astound.
obaminated Member	Sat Nov 23 23:36:32 Uh Cause I said to take care of your body?
Sam Adams Member	Sun Nov 24 12:37:49 You arent supposed to help yourself. Only the appropriate government agency is supposed to do that.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 25 03:11:26 Obaminated: No. Because of the degree to which you misunderstood a very clear line of argument. You even need the refutation explained to you.
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