Utopia Talk / Politics / The European situation in a nutshell

Rugian Member	Wed Feb 19 06:30:34 2006 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2008 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2014 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2016 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2017 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2018 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2019 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2020 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2021 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's some money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2022 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's a ton of money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2023 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's a ton of money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2024 US: "Our European allies need to increase their defense spending. Also, here's a ton of money for Ukraine." Europe: "Fuck you, you can protect us on your own dime." ---- 2025 US: "You know what, screw it. You're on your own Europe. Pour as much money into Ukraine as you want, but we're done with this BS." Europe: "OH MY GOD HOW COULD WE HAVE EVER SEEN THIS COMING, THIS IS SUCH A BETRAYAL OMG" ---- I have zero sympathy for the Eurocucks crying right now. You had years to prepare for this and you didnt.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 06:36:03 You missed the part where for the last 80 years the US consistently pressured Europe to abandon independent ISR, planning and mission capabilities because the US was providing them; and focus on modular capabilities to operate under US leadership; using a range of diplomatic pressure points to achieve this.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 06:38:42 Under the circumstances it's impossible to look at the US as doing anything but a naked backstab. Europe needs to step up and deal with Russia alone, and then leverage China and other powers to isolate and weaken the US diplomatically and economically.
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 06:49:23 European countries should ditch Nato and the EU and join BRICS! First we need to apologize to Russia. And maybe a small apology to China also. And to the Global South.
Rugian Member	Wed Feb 19 06:54:59 Dude, fucking Obama told you guys a decade and a half ago that it was time for the US to pivot to other theaters of the globe. Trump has been transparent since Day 1 of how he wanted to see Europe perform on defense. You can't claim that you didn't get any warning about this. You just refused to take it seriously all this time. That's your fault, not ours.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 06:55:59 Russia is an agressor state. China is an adversary, but should be leveraged in a containment strategy.
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 06:57:03 Apologies are never going to happen. The liberals of Europe has made sure that Europe is now entirely on its own. The cheap gas that Russia provided us with — the energy that Europe built its prosperity on, is GONE! If the liberals alienate Mr Trump, will we still be able to buy expensive LNG from USA? Maybe not! If the liberals continue their current confrontial course towards Russia and China, maybe China too will eventually tell Europe to get lost. Remember, our incompetent liberal leaders in Europe did this.
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 06:59:30 ” China is an adversary, but should be leveraged in a containment strategy.” Dude, those days are gone. The UK or the EU can’t contain China. It is in Europe’s interests to work with China as mutual partners.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 07:08:53 Paramount: "The cheap gas that Russia provided us with — the energy that Europe built its prosperity on, is GONE!" Tell that to France. Cheapest energy in Europe on a long term basis, green, no Russian dependency. It was a mistake to use Russian gas. "The UK or the EU can’t contain China." It's not China I'm suggesting the needs to be contained. It's the newly expansionist US.
Rugian Member	Wed Feb 19 07:10:29 "It's not China I'm suggesting the needs to be contained. It's the newly expansionist US." Absolutely idiotic. Social media has turned you into a histrionic extremist.
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 07:19:53 If you want to fight the USA, we need to join China and Russia, and Brics. So we need to leave Nato. But before we can join with China and Russia, European leaders will need to apologize to Russia.
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 07:21:36 Take a break, Seb. It’s a beautiful weather today. At least in Stockholm. Go out for a walk in park. Drink a coffee and feed the birds :)
murder Member	Wed Feb 19 07:22:45 "The UK or the EU can’t contain China." The EU has no need to contain China.
murder Member	Wed Feb 19 07:24:38 "Absolutely idiotic. Social media has turned you into a histrionic extremist." He's absolutely right. The US is threatening to invade and/or annex several nations including European territories and allies. The US absolutely needs to be contained. -
Rugian Member	Wed Feb 19 07:29:32 ^ for the record, this is what an actual fifth columnist looks like
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 07:33:18 ” The US absolutely needs to be contained.” Yes, the US is a bigger threat to world peace than Russia is.
murder Member	Wed Feb 19 07:36:18 You're compromised.
murder Member	Wed Feb 19 07:36:57 "Yes, the US is a bigger threat to world peace than Russia is." The current US administration is Russian.
Paramount Member	Wed Feb 19 07:50:33 Well, I’m going out for a late lunch walk now. I’m gonna see if I have some breadcrumbs I can bring with me for the birds.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 08:05:42 Rugian: The US govt has in the last few weeks repeatedly expressed its desire for territorial expansion, and attempted to - in conjunction with Russia - turn Ukraine into a colony. We've seen the proposed treaty. We've heard your president, vice president, and secdef. It's you that don't seem to accept reality.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 08:14:00 Rugian: It's possible your brain is cooked on alt-right irony and you genuinely think that is reasonable for us to take this like irrelevant 4chan bullshitting. I don't believe for a second that's what's going on. You don't turn up to a security conference, tell your hosts that Russia isn't the enemy, their own governments are, and then present terms worse than Verseilles on the victim of russian aggression before then swanning off to discuss carving up Europe with a Russian dictator and pretend it's all a joke. You are correct we didn't take previous US presidents seriously, or Putin. We must not make the same mistake again. It's clear from the mass illegality and increasingly bizarre royal proclamations issuing form from the Whitehouse that the US has fallen. When it comes to the crunch rugian, you are a supporter of this movement and the US as a whole is no longer an ally. This isn't an issue of which party or president controls the white house, the structures, culture and incentives remain endure even if there might be more amenable leaders. The US is clearly now an adversary collaborating with Russia to threaten Europe and its allies and must be opposed and ultimately contained.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 08:26:59 Paramount: "the US is a bigger threat to world peace than Russia is" You are getting your multis mixed up I think. The Paramount character definitely thinks the US is a bigger threat to world peace than Russia. Russia is a threat to world peace, and also needs containing. The way to do that is to defeat it in Ukraine.
murder Member	Wed Feb 19 08:31:31 "It's you that don't seem to accept reality." He has accepted Trump's reality. The orange one defines truth. In the rare event that what the orange one says or does causes him discomfort, he simply claims that it's not so. -
Sam Adams Member	Wed Feb 19 10:44:05 Lol seb is so butthurt that europe is going to need to do its own work. And I still think its hilarious that seb wants to fight external enemies to "defend europe" while destroying europe from within.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 19 11:17:41 Sam: No, I'm not buthurt we have to do our own work. I'm buthurt with America threatening our allies and working with Russia to carve up Europe. I happily embrace the additional costs of building a strong European capability. Which, after Russia, must be used to contain the rogue American state.
jergul large member	Wed Feb 19 11:52:50 Murder And the next administration will not seek alignment with Russia? Russia can help the US contain both its global adversaries. Russia itself is not really a global contender, though it can play kingmaker.
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