Utopia Talk / Politics / FAFO

Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 06:19:55 http://www...uy-weapons-locally-2025-04-02/ Lol. No. You can't threaten to annex your allies and sabotage countries using your weapons self defence by turning them off, and then expect people to keep buying your kit.
jergul large member	Wed Apr 02 06:45:24 I fear the main reason is more prosiac than retaliation. Europe cannot rebuid its defence industries without large and predictable government contracts.
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Apr 02 06:47:41 Seb-nonce talking about "FAFO" like euro-cuck leaders didn't just prostrate themselves to a death cult is rich. They were pissing their pants that they'd be vulnerable to Russia without these United States writing checks, but now he's pretending that the U.S. potentially losing a weapons buyer is "FAFO". Absolute fucking retard.
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 07:05:07 Anything Europe can provide for itself, which is pretty much everything, it should provide for itself. There's no reason why a block of advanced nations should outsource its weapons development and manufacturing. -
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 07:11:14 The US sales pitch ... "We will sell you degraded weapons systems. We will sell them to you at inflated prices. We will strengthen your enemies and encourage them to invade you. We will take your territory. Go fuck yourself! Why won't you buy our weapons?" ... is an interesting one. -
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Apr 02 07:13:56 It's particularly interesting because it's false. It's an invention from within the mind of deranged Regime sycophants.
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 07:17:14 Which part of that is false?
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 02 07:25:32 Anything the United States can provide for itself, which is pretty much everything, it should provide for itself. There's no reason why the world's only global superpower should outsource its manufacturing and procurement needs. -
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Apr 02 07:31:56 FALSE: "degraded weapons systems" This implies that the weapons are no longer useful, whereas these weapons are functional and lethal. FALSE: "We will sell them to you at inflated prices." Not inflated. The cost of these weapons typically reflects contract requirements of production. Certain pistols, for instance, may "appear" to be the same as, say, some Russian knock-off, but, in reality, these weapons have gone through endurance trials and have a lower failure rate. Some weapons contracts do indeed appear to be inflated, but without incorporating the endurance-trial requirements that is just bed-shitter rhetoric. FALSE: "We will strengthen your enemies and encourage them to invade you." This is an inversion. The ESG/DEI strategy that the global totalitarian elite were adopting (e.g., the puppet Biden, Starmer, Macron) was intentionally designed to siphon Western wealth to BRICS+ and Israeli proxy wars such as Ukraine. The overall goal was to make the West so reliant on BRICS+ that the West either becomes a slave state to Eastern ideology or is forced into war with BRICS+ to balance global pollution (i.e., destroying the world's greatest polluters: BRICS+ nations). To pretend that Trump policies are doing this is a disingenuous projection of actual *Biden* policy. FALSE: "We will take your territory." No territory is being taken. At best you're talking about negotiations for Greenland and Canada or something. FALSE: "Go fuck yourself!" Nope. These United States have been an economic zone for the international Bolsheviks who have used it as a tax farm while they preach the glories of their stolen wealth under management (asset managers siphoning United States wealth for their European socialism), and now they're facing the prospect of actually managing their own defense via their own labor. It was *they* who thought they could tell these United States to get fucked, but now their people will feel the burden of their own theft. FALSE: "Why won't you buy our weapons?" That is not even what's being argued in the Reuters article. The issue here is that the same ESG/DEI strategy that is siphoning wealth to BRICS+ is still at play in Europe, hence, if Europe does not change its economic prerogatives *before* divesting weapons purchases from these United States, then *they* (Europe) will be strengthening BRICS+ through supply-line decisions. This was always the problem with Western traitors trying to make a massive anti-competitive pyramid scheme and protection racket which forces the West to purchase materials from BRICS+ — it is self-sabotage on a massive scale to have to buy war materials from your enemies. The argument is that Europe needs to fix its supply lines before divesting.
jergul large member	Wed Apr 02 07:49:58 What are you even complaining about? The US gets endless supplies of goods and services in exchanged for FIAT notes scored on electronic ledgers that eventually are turned into below inflation federal debt that will never be repaid. What is not to love?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 02 08:56:01 CC ”hence, if Europe does not change its economic prerogatives *before* divesting weapons purchases from these United States, then *they* (Europe) will be strengthening BRICS+” This. Europe has yet to realize that they can not have the cake and it too. As in net zero, green deal, insane environmental goals, bloated nannycracy, and a strong military supported supported by a domestic military industry carried by a healthy economy.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 09:22:28 Youve got to love Incel complaining about Europe not only using its own weapons when the only thing slowing it down is the right wing that he votes for - the only people in Europe who still want to buy US weapons
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 09:26:51 E.g. (google translate) interview with right wing "think tank" Timbro which has been Heritage's mouthpiece in Sweden for a couple of decades Last week I had a discussion with Timbro's PM Nilsson on Folk och försvar. It was about Europe and whether it is possible to create a European defense. I said that we can no longer buy American weapons. We must make ourselves independent. The USA has a completely unpredictable president. And what's more, the USA seems to have tampered with its weapons in Ukraine after the ambush against Volodymyr Zelenskyj in the Oval Office. Suddenly, Ukraine could no longer strike, so they were dependent on data streams from the Pentagon. The USA did start these data streams again, but by then the damage was done. Can the USA remotely shut down the weapons they sold us? a stunned Europe asked itself. We can't buy any more, I said on Folk och försvar. I haven't seen PM Nilsson so angry in many years. - Now taking the initiative for us to leave NATO is idiotic, he said. Then suddenly I understood why Ulf Kristersson has been silent about Donald Trump ever since last autumn, why the Swedish government keeps a low profile when the US threatens Denmark and tries to duck when other European politicians are clear about the US. The right believes that if we protect Sweden's interests against Washington, they will break up with us. We must therefore continue to buy weapons that do not work, otherwise.... And this despite the fact that the US has not hesitated to use a "kill switch" on its weapons in Ukraine to put pressure on Kiev. The right has not understood that it is already over. The US does not love us anymore. Danish politicians are openly saying that they now regret buying the F-35 fighter jet from the US, because Donald Trump is demanding Greenland. I think Sweden's low profile is embarrassing. Denmark's cause is actually ours. If we keep quiet when the US pressures Denmark, who will speak for us on the day Donald Trump wants Norrland iron ore or rents Gotland for a hundred years? Or something else. Appeasement policies against authoritarian regimes never work, they always want more. And the US must today be seen as an authoritarian regime. Here the right-wing's love of belligerence and longing for confirmation from the US are just a problem. They don't seem to see what's happening. I think it's time for self-examination, not high-pitched rhetoric, from the right. Sweden in NATO should continue to be Sweden. Our interests are important, the interests of the Nordic countries are important. Denmark is one of our absolute closest friends. Anyone who threatens Copenhagen threatens us. Everything else is idealistic slush. For me, the coin fell down when I listened to PM Nilsson. Sweden no longer has its own foreign policy because the right is afraid. And fear is a dangerous driving force. It makes you give up without a fight. It makes you compromise too far. It makes you keep quiet when you should speak. But we are actually not a state in the US. We don't have to obey. We don't have to buy their garbage. Something I – every day – become more grateful for. http://www...maste-inse-det-ar-slut-med-usa
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Apr 02 09:37:51 "Appeasement policies against authoritarian regimes never work, they always want more. And the US must today be seen as an authoritarian regime" ROFL
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 11:33:20 "This implies that the weapons are no longer useful, whereas these weapons are functional and lethal." No, this asserts that the systems have been nerfed. "Not inflated." Absolutely inflated. Foreign buyers pay higher prices than the US armed forces do. "This is an inversion. The ESG/DEI strategy that the global totalitarian elite were adopting (e.g., the puppet Biden, Starmer, Macron) was intentionally designed to siphon Western wealth to BRICS+ and Israeli proxy wars such as Ukraine. The overall goal was to make the West so reliant on BRICS+ that the West either becomes a slave state to Eastern ideology or is forced into war with BRICS+ to balance global pollution (i.e., destroying the world's greatest polluters: BRICS+ nations). To pretend that Trump policies are doing this is a disingenuous projection of actual *Biden* policy." Trump is locking in Russia's gains in Ukraine and lifting sanctions on Russia. And Trump has openly stated that he'd encourage Russia to invade European countries. "No territory is being taken. At best you're talking about negotiations for Greenland and Canada or something." Trump has made clear that he intends to take Greenland through coercion or force. So yeah ... or something. "Nope. These United States have been an economic zone for the international Bolsheviks who have used it as a tax farm while they preach the glories of their stolen wealth under management (asset managers siphoning United States wealth for their European socialism), and now they're facing the prospect of actually managing their own defense via their own labor. It was *they* who thought they could tell these United States to get fucked, but now their people will feel the burden of their own theft." blah blah crazypants nonsense. "That is not even what's being argued in the Reuters article. The issue here is that the same ESG/DEI strategy that is siphoning wealth to BRICS+ is still at play in Europe, hence, if Europe does not change its economic prerogatives *before* divesting weapons purchases from these United States, then *they* (Europe) will be strengthening BRICS+ through supply-line decisions. This was always the problem with Western traitors trying to make a massive anti-competitive pyramid scheme and protection racket which forces the West to purchase materials from BRICS+ — it is self-sabotage on a massive scale to have to buy war materials from your enemies. The argument is that Europe needs to fix its supply lines before divesting." Not wanting to buy from their enemies is exactly why Europe wants to quit buying American weapons. -
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 11:44:08 You have to remember whan talking to the far right that youre not talking to someone with a different perspective. Youre talking to someone who is knowingly lying like a used car salesman trying to con you into buying a car with a fixed speedometer.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 02 11:48:09 Europes not going to defend itself. That would require work.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 11:52:29 Trying to honestly debate with crooks like that is a complete waste of time. They just think youre a dumbass mark every time you make an argument based in your honest beliefs. All theyre doing while listening to you is thinking up their next lie. You either try to reason with them to get your money back with no chance in hell of succeeding or you get down to their language and smack them in the mouth and maybe get your money back
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 12:00:48 "Europes not going to defend itself. That would require work." I agree. But we're not going to defend them either.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:04:06 Trying to debate with the far right is the same mistake that allows them to exploit democracy to gain power, and then abolish democracy. As Karl Popper explained: "Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.”
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 12:14:07 Although I think Europe's issue is less a willingness to defend itself as it is an inability to do so as a result of its fragmentation and history. Even if Germany or France could put together and finance a 1,000,000 strong armed force, other European nations would not agree to letting them lead like they do with the US. Regardless of willingness or spending levels, any European force is going to end up with rotating leadership and ineffectual. -
patom Member	Wed Apr 02 12:25:48 The US could be seen as a faithful dog that has been infected with rabies.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:27:09 What are you on about. Youre ignoring 2,000 years of the biggest wars in history where European countries conquered all parts of the planet for the last 70 when we focused on peace. The only ones who still havent woken up to the fact that a peaceful era is coming to an end is the far-right in Europe. Nobody else in Europe wants to touch the USA or USA weaponry with a barge pole.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:29:49 It is true, however, that we need to get better at telling the traitorous Eureopan far right to stfu and get out of our way, in line with Karl Poppers warnings
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:43:13 But everyone still knows that just Germany alone preparing for war is no fun to meet on the battlefield. The US has never faced an enemy that wasnt much smaller than them. In an interview with a Ukrainian solder a while back, he said that most of the US volunteers quickly left when they realized they weren't facing an enemy much smaller than them with hardly any weapons, which is all theyve ever experienced. We're in an era where they're provoking a similarly sized economy and population into rearming against them, something theyve never faced before.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:46:00
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:49:56 The EU parliament is far more in agreement and cooperative than the US house and congress
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 12:51:56 Nobody in the world is wondering if Eurozone countries are about to go to war with each other, but the whole planet is wondering if civil war is about to break out in the US
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 13:01:09 "The EU parliament is far more in agreement and cooperative than the US house and congress" They may be, but they are still not one nation. They don't pool their budgets. They don't have one army, one navy, and one air force. A European force would be like if every US Army brigade got to decide how much it was going to spend and on what, and how to train and discipline their own soldiers, and operated independently, and could veto any action. You can't have that and still function as one force. -
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:06:36 The EU is like a federation but where each state has more autonomy than US states. There is nothing in that arrangement that precludes the member states from effective collaboration in wartime.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:08:03 The big ones, France, Uk, Germany, etc are in far more agreement than California, Texas etc
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 02 13:09:17 ^Fucking moron, doesn’t understand the meaning of words.
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 13:10:07 "The EU is like a federation but where each state has more autonomy than US states." When it comes to their armed forces ... 100% more autonomy. "There is nothing in that arrangement that precludes the member states from effective collaboration in wartime." I would beg to differ. But more importantly is that if you're not on the same page in peacetime, your fucked when it's time to fight. -
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 02 13:22:03 How long has it been since European nations collaborated on a joint combined arms mission that wasn't led and organized by the US? Fifty years? WWII?
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:24:50 There is zero doubt that the EU is a lot more closely aligned than the US states in our era, and the US agression is increasing our cohesion by the day while simultaneously increasing the discohesion in the USA by the day.
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 02 13:25:06 They couldn't even act together without daddy Clinton to stop genocide and war crimes in Bosnia lol
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:25:40 If it gets to the point of agression between EU and US forces, I expect that civil war will already have broken out in the US by then, and all we need to do is fuel the flames
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:27:24 "They couldn't even act together without daddy Clinton to stop genocide and war crimes in Bosnia lol" See, this is where US ignorance of the world around them becomes embarrassing. Eastern Europe is as separate from Western Europe ad Central America and Northern America. This is on the same level of utter ignorance as comparing San Salvador with Canada.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:30:43 *El Salvador
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:32:40 "Canada cant get their shit together at all! Just look at the mess in El Salvador!" - Product of the US school system
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 02 13:36:21 lol wtf does that have to do with the fact that Europe needed the USA to stop a genocide on this continent? Did the USA need our help to straighten out Grenada, Panama or El Slavador? How retarded are you?
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:38:39 There are 2 reasons the US school system brainwashes every american into blind nationalism: 1) it makes it easier to maintain an army, and more importantly: 2) if the population has been tricked into thinking everywhere else is shit apart from their country, they are going to be much more willing and gullible swallowers of utter crap in their own country, because no matter how bad their country gets "at least its still better than everywhere else!".
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:40:11 Just like North Koreans largely believe that everywhere else is worse than their country, even as they make bread from tree bark
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 13:43:03 "There is zero doubt that the EU is a lot more closely aligned than the US states in our era, and the US agression is increasing our cohesion by the day while simultaneously increasing the discohesion in the USA by the day." That's great, but you guys don't even have one language. In the US if you're going to join the US armed forces, you have to speak English. That way everyone can communicate and instructions and orders don't have to be translated. Europe is like Babel. What language are you guys going to use? Also, over here we have people that make decisions on how we arm ourselves and how we train and discipline our forces. The President doesn't have to ask any governor pretty please if he wants to deploy forces be they regular army or national guard. European countries are not going to give up that sort of control over their armed forces or even a portion of them. -
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 13:43:20 Nim: "This. Europe has yet to realize that they can not have the cake and it too. As in net zero, green deal, insane environmental goals, bloated nannycracy, and a strong military supported supported by a domestic military industry carried by a healthy economy." Incorrect. It can have this: the US by eroding its own institutions leaves wide open the opportunity for the Eurozone to nab the exorbitant privilege of the global baseline currency. *If* it is willing to issue collective (i.e. ECB backed) debt. True Eurobonds rather than MS bonds denominated in Euros.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:44:38 Everyone under 70 speaks english here, in every western european country. Of course allied armies are perfectly possible, history is full of allied armies fighting together
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:45:11 under much less organized forms than the EU
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:46:37 Allied european armies have fought together for centuries, and Western Europe has never been as closely and tightly organized as in the EU era
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 13:47:49 Just the fact that Eurozone countries now share the same currecny makes it very hard for them to go to war against each other and wreck their own currency
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 13:51:41 Murder: "I would beg to differ. But more importantly is that if you're not on the same page in peacetime, your fucked when it's time to fight" I would say you are letting peace time cloud your judgement and that for Europe war time is here. WW2 showed exactly how you can have a unified alliance command structure. NATO missions allow for this. The challenge is that the US has historically monopolized key NATO functions like planning. However, whether by intention of this admin or the last, or because of responsible folks in the DoD / US forces, there's a plan for upskilling and transferring those functions that's already being implemented. I think we in c. 5 years we will be looking at NATO institutions being able to operate independently of the US (albeit degraded until ISTR etc fully catch up), with SACEUR / Deputy SACEUR being filled by rotating French/UK/Polish/German position
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:00:28 every act of aggression by Trump toward the EU and good friends like Canada, etc, unites us even more and divides the US even more. If he continues to the point where we're pointing arms at each other, the US will be in the greatest disarray it has ever been in since the civil war and the EU, Canada etc will be more united than in any other time in history.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:04:44 * I absentmindedly still include the UK in the EU from force of habit. Theyre still in line with the EU in matters of shared common values concerning democracy and other relevant perspectives in these times
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 02 14:09:21 Seb Seb, you’re assuming the Euro can suddenly gain the global trust, liquidity, and geopolitical backing that the US dollar has built over decades. But the global reserve currency spot is a lot more crowded now than when the dollar took over, China is certainly interested, and the EU lacks the unified fiscal, military, and industrial strength to compete. Even if Eurobonds were issued, they wouldn’t magically solve Europe’s deeper problems: economic contradictions, pitiful innovation, dying industry, and anemic energy production. Sacrifices need to be made. Anything else is wishful thinking. The aooner people understand this the better off we are.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:11:12 And in that scenario where the US and the western world are pointing arms at each other, we will of course have to clamp down on traitors that we gave a home to like Incel.
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 14:11:16 "every act of aggression by Trump toward the EU and good friends like Canada, etc, unites us even more and divides the US even more." WTF are you talking about? The US and Europe are not trading fire. The US is on the other side of the world. And before Europe fights anyone, first they have to figure out how to organize and get freedom of action from all the national governments involved. As much as I'd love to see it happen, I just don't see it happening. -
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:12:39 You dont get that on this side of the ocean, we see the US as an aggressor toward us. You need to understand that that is what is going on over here.
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 14:13:06 "Even if Eurobonds were issued, they wouldn’t magically solve Europe’s deeper problems: economic contradictions, pitiful innovation, dying industry, and anemic energy production." Energy production can be solved anytime they want to. All of Europe can go nuclear.
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 14:14:33 "You dont get that on this side of the ocean, we see the US as an aggressor toward us. You need to understand that that is what is going on over here." I see the US as an aggressor towards me too ... but we're still not shooting at each other.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 02 14:16:27 Seb in this thread "privilege of the global baseline currency." Seb in another thread: "We dont need steel or ships" Lmfao. Like i said euroland cant do shit. Too much incompetence.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:18:43 The US doesnt have to point arms directly at us. The way Europe sees it, the US might very, very well do that by proxy via Russia and through economic war against us. In fact, Western Europe, Canada etc largely thinks that is what is already happening.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:21:27 Its going to take some time to unwind fully from the US because this knife in the back is unprecedented in all history, I think, but certainly we will come a long way in the 4 years of Trump ahead of us, especially since he will continue to ramp up his aggression which will continue to increase our disentanglement from the back-knifing USA.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:31:13 "European defense stocks have surged in recent months as geopolitical tensions prompt regional officials to ramp up spending on national security. In Germany, lawmakers have passed a historic debt reform , paving the way for a huge splurge on defense, while U.K. Prime Minister Keir Starmer has pledged to hike Britain’s national spend on defense . The EU has also drawn up plans to mobilize up to 800 billion euros ($862.2 billion) to bolster regional security. Europe’s Stoxx aerospace and defense index has gained around 34% since the beginning of the year Thyssenkrupp’s stock has gained 150% since the beginning of the year. Renk Group Defense contractor Renk Group reported a record order intake of 1.4 billion euros ($1.5 billion) on Wednesday, citing strong market conditions.. Thyssenkrupp added around $1.5 billion to its market cap between the date of EU unveiling its ReArm Europe plan three weeks ago and Wednesday’s market close. Thyssenkrupp is planning to spinoff its marine systems division, with the new standalone unit set to be listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange, according to news agency Reuters . The firm reported a 50% increase in orders in its fiscal first quarter, thanks to “major orders” in its marine systems division, which builds submarines, ships and naval electronics. " http://www.cnbc.com/pro/investing-trends/ etc etc etc We've been losing huge amounts of money by having a friendly defence relationships with the US. Thats all changing dramatically, coincidentally with the US arms shrinking as a consequence.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 14:35:14 "In the wake of the company’s earnings release, analysts at Bank of America said they saw a “clear path” to sales of 30 billion euros by 2029 for Rheinmetall , whose 2024 sales reached 9.75 billion euros. Beyond 2030, they said there was potential for the company to deliver sales of around 50 billion euros." We're buying our own weapons now and in the foreseeable future, which is a disaster for the US arms industry and a boon for ours
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 02 14:37:49 murder The point isn’t that any of those things do not have solution, rather that the EU can’t pursue the same path it has, that led it to where it is. That includes the German stance on nuclear power and the green deal. Remember those Dutch farmer who hsd to shut down because of the environment? Yeah well food production is a matter of national security. The cost of net zero is estimated at 10% of EU gdp, which would impact the temperature increase with 0.0016 degrees. That is retarded.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 15:58:19 Nim: "Seb, you’re assuming" No, I'm not assuming. I'm explicitly arguing that conditions now are such that this is a very real possibility. Firstly, European institutions are almost pathologically slave to transparent rules, as witnessed through the Euro crisis. Secondly, the US deviations from rule of law, increased politicisation of the courts, and partisan approach to things like the debt ceiling that would trigger default, plus economic mismanagement like what we are seeing today all erode trust in the US system. Overt weaponisation of the dollar and financial systems don't help. This has always been a feature (e.g. Suez crisis) but had increased abs there has never been a viable alternative. Finally, there's strong evidence for demand for Eurobonds. The facility created for COVID recovery showed huge demand at incredibly low borrowing costs. The issue is, as you say, liquidity. The challenge here is entirely within the EU / MS's gift. Firstly some technical stuff around how EU markets work that the EC is already addressing. Secondly, the issue I specifically mentioned: current Euro denominated "sovereign" debt isn't sovereign (it is not ultimately underwritten by the ECB and MSs can go bankrupt, which is not the case with US federal debt unless silly shenanigans with the debt ceiling force that to happen artificially). However, there's now a desperate need to underwrite massive re-armament plus the other pressures you describe. I suspect (especially with Germany ripping up it's black zero approach to debt) you'll see the taboo already broken with COVID recovery broken again for defence where defence is collective, and the proportionate burden falls heaviest on the smallest. The logic for leveraging collective credit to reduce borrowing through collective instruments is incredibly compelling because the benefit is aggregate; and the need to find a rationale to meet the political need is strong. But the same rationale can be applied to other collective issues (climate change, demographic transition etc etc). So yes, I think the geopolitical conditions that necessitate the Eurozone adopting the same model of the US Dollar system also greatly facilitate it happening.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 16:08:40 "economic contradictions, pitiful innovation, dying industry, and anemic energy production." Firstly, depends how you measure innovation. The biggest issue isn't generation of technologies, it's beginning it to market. Which is largely about capital raising and debt markets, and the lower costs of US giants to finance acquisitions of European companies and tech. The US initiated trade wars, the lack of trust is US firms given weaponisation of dependency, subsequent EU "buy Europe", plus capital market reforms needed to boost re-armament will address this. Economic contradictions are primarily due to German ordo-liberalism that would rather see unused capacity than deficits. To borrow a line from Keynes "anything we can actually do, we can afford" - all that unemployment in the periphery is unused capacity, and the present reticence to allow state borrowing is effectively a drag on aggregate demand which could put that spare capacity to work. Dying industry - not sure where you are getting this: the EU retains greater heavy industry capacity than the US, plus great areas of nice specialist production. The EU lags on "tech" in the sense of digital services, but remains a huge hi tech manufacturer, hence the trade surplus with the US. Again, re-armament is a boon here as onshoring supply chains to feed defense also acts as a subsidy for civilian production. Energy production, I wouldn't describe as aenemic. We are rapidly replacing lost russian oil. Scale that forward a decade. Sam: I mean if you think I said we (UK) don't need ships in that thread I think you are a properly a retard. We don't need 80 million tonnes displacement of ships. But we (UK) are not the EU.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 02 16:17:53 You have no domestic steel production, thus no or little ship production, little oil production, little aircraft production, no semiconductors, little intellectual property, no auto or battery production, no conventional military power, little biomedical production. The only thing you do have of global value is a few banks that were protected by the US, and 4 nuclear ballistic submarines that you probably cannot maintain by yourself. Lol global reserve currency.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 02 16:22:08 What is it you actually do here uk.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Wed Apr 02 17:58:02 If I'm European, yup, right about now I'd make it a priority to move as much defense production home as possible as well. It's an open secret that the F-35s phone home to the Pentagon for permission to operate. Meaning that if America disagrees with a customer's foreign policy choices, we can remotely disable their entire export-model F-35 fleet. That's why Israel guts the entire untrusted American avionics package and replaces it with their own, as soon as they get each and every F-35, which given *that* fact is only economical to purchase anyways b/c *America pays for it,* so it's a "purchase" in air quotes, really a gift. If I'm not Israel, and if I'm instead Europe, I absolutely no longer at this point trust America's shit. And, to Sam's point, much of the EU has neglected their defense industries for decades, a rational thing to do when a rational actor United States can also be assumed. But that can no longer be assumed. Europe can no longer tell itself that Trump 1.0 was a one-off, b/c now we see Trump 2.0 is more erratic than ever, and that means there's a good chance of a 3.0 with a different name. When you buy a weapon system, you're buying into that supply chain, and indirectly into being aligned with that nation (...Hungary, I guess is, ok). The folks in the white house are all about saying that Europe should defend itself, shouldn't be bailed out, all the shit they were saying in that Signal chat. Fine, so be it, **this is what that looks like.** Were they really stupid enough to think that WOULDN'T mean re-starting European heavy industry as it applies to supporting domestic weapons production?! Of-fucking-course it means that, exactly that, sorry Boeing and Raytheon, etc. France, with it's choice to maintain nuclear weapons independent of the US, right about now is looking like the smart ones. The UK, France, and Germany, all maintained their own tank supply chain. Time to re-tool for drones and jets. And time to give a few F-35s to whomever can reverse engineer the shit out of it. The free world depends on the arsenal of democracy NOT being anything remotely close to an American monopoly.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 18:02:15 Sam: "You have no domestic steel production," Incorrect. We actually export specialist steels to the US. "thus no or little ship production" Incorrect. All British warships are built in the UK. In fact, we are building the missile compartments for the US Columbia subs. "little oil production" Yeah, North sea is not as productive and good policy reasons we are trying to reduce that, but it's there if we need to increase it. "little aircraft production" Incorrect. "no semiconductors," Incorrect. "little intellectual property" Incorrect "No auto" Incorrect "no conventional military power" Incorrect "little biomedical production." Incorrect (drugs are one of our major exports to the US). Do you ever get tired of being wrong about everything by just saying stuff that you think ought to be right without checking? "global reserve currency" You seem confused between the UK and sterling, Vs the EU and the Euro.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 18:06:32 Sam you increasingly remind me of that deranged russian nationalist by we used to have here... werewolf or something? Just completely unhinged: Russia was great at everything, American stuff was all fake and shit... That's you now that is. Sitting in a country actively being destroyed by forces you culturally support even though you know are disastrous; clinging to increasingly absurd claims of national superiority to avoid confronting your own complicity in your countries ruin.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 02 18:07:35 The UK got rid of Truss. The US elected the lettuce.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 18:11:16 Well, Truss was the Daily Mails choice, after all, so that alone meant it was going to be a disaster
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 18:14:54 "Blessed with Yorkshire grit, Miss Truss has the boldness, imagination and strength of conviction to tap into it and build on what Boris began. She’s acutely aware that business as usual is not an option. The Mail believes Miss Truss is able, willing and ready for the task. We don’t doubt that Miss Truss has the guts, gumption and guile for the job" Etc. -Sams newspaper of choice
murder Member	Wed Apr 02 18:43:39 "Sam you increasingly remind me of that deranged russian nationalist by we used to have here... werewolf or something?" werewolf dictator if I remember correctly.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 02 23:38:46 Trump ruined Swedens deal to sell fighter planes to Colombia a while back "Not So Fast: America Shoots Down Sweden’s Gripen Jet Deal With Colombia “The United States will officially veto the sale of the General Electric F414-GE-39E engine used on the @Saab Gripen E" Colombia decides to tell the US, fuck you, we're doing it anyway "Colombia's President, Gustavo Petro, confirmed his government's intention to acquire a fleet of advanced Saab JAS 39 Gripen fighter jets from Sweden, a decision poised to modernize the country's air defense capabilities"
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 03 02:35:25 Seb You are downplaying the scale of the structural hurdles Europe faces in trying to replace the dollar as the global reserve currency. This isn’t just a matter of technical fixes. The political cohesion required is fragile at best, and without a unified fiscal and military policy, Europe simply does not have the geopolitical leverage or economic scale to make anyone want to use the Euro as a global currency. You keep hand waving away the chronic failures in innovation, the anemic tech sector, and the slow growth, as if they’re not significant barriers to Europe’s global competitiveness. This isn’t just a temporary issue. These are deep structural problems that can’t be solved just by issuing debt or changing fiscal rules. And let’s not forget the decades of green-driven policies that have systematically undermined energy and food security *both critical for European security*. This is not just an economic issue, it’s a strategic one. The point of the matter is that you seem to be arguing for the sake of it, without acknowledging the gravity of the situation. You should go back and really read what I wrote: all these issues have fixes, but the path the Eurocrats have created cannot be maintained, encapsulted in the retarded concept of "net zero military". This thinking can not survive, or we will not survive. I’m sorry, but if you can’t see that none of this will work with the current energy prices in Europe, then you’re wasting my time. You are not serious, you have been in some state of emotional rage since reality came crashing down, a reality people had been warning you about and that you had, chronically as you do, be arguing against incessantly. People like you are always a decade late to reality. And at some point, you will just start making up things to defend an untenable position.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 03 09:24:06 http://bsk...bsky.social/post/3llvamsh2m22y So this is interesting also: this purports to be the way tarrifs are being set - what is needed to get trade to balance. Thinking through the economics then: US policy going forward is to aggressively seek balanced trade. At the same time the US is clearly seeking to reduce issuance of debt. This is a problem for the Dollar. If you can't earn more dollars by exports and the debt you hold is going to turn into a stream of dollars, do you really want to earn dollars for your exports?
Seb Member	Thu Apr 03 09:30:41 Nim: Nope, I don't think I am actually. Rather I think you are downplaying the damage the US is doing to the pillars of dollar supremacy. "The political cohesion required is fragile at best," I disagree, the Euro crisis showed remarkable commitment to political cohesion. "without a unified fiscal" There is one already. " and military policy" This isn't necessary for internationalisation of the Euro. "Europe simply does not have the geopolitical leverage" It doesn't really need any leverage to make it happen. It just needs a large proportion of global trade, deep capital markets, a willingness to issue sovereign debt, and strong, trustworthy institutions. "or economic scale" 16-20% of world trade and 15% of GDP are sufficient here. The dollar was useful as a medium or exchange, but increasingly not sure to the factors set out above. The Euro is the next best bet as an alternative, the main thing that's missing is a suitable savings vehicle like sovereign Eurobonds. To the extent the ECB issued these to fund COVID recovery, demand was huge.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 03 09:35:03 Nim, you are doing that thing where you are just asserting things without evidence or reason. You know perfectly well the EU produces plenty of tech products, and that these are rapidly acquired by us giants. The issue isn't a lack of innovation, it's predatory monopolies stifling competition. That's the reason Europe does better in hardware.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 03 09:53:21 You can have the cake or eat it. There are limited resources and time is ticking. Either you understand what I said or you don't. Like Jergul with his views on Russia and the Islamic Republic, you seem to think we have all the time and resources in the world. As if we have infinite lives and this is some kind of game. What you're offering isn't optimism, it's magical thinking and delusion. The harsh reality is that we can't keep pretending we have endless options. There are serious trade-offs to be made, and time is running out.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Apr 03 10:11:30 "clinging to increasingly absurd claims of national superiority" Lol i dont claim US superiority. All i'm claiming is UK inferiority. Learn to read. Its entirely possible that certain foreign countries beat the US in various things... but none of that will be done by you.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Apr 03 10:13:11 Has anyone ever bought something british? I dont think ive ever even used something that came from britain. Lol what a shithole.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 03 10:41:23 Sam: You are almost certainly using a device with chips using licensed British technology. You almost certainly can't afford a Bentley.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Apr 03 14:27:07 Rofl. Your a fucking titan of industry. Bently. Bently makes what... 10k vehicles a year? Toyota makes that number every 9 hours. Every one more reliable too. Lol uk
murder Member	Thu Apr 03 16:44:48 http://www...op-reserve-currencies-in-2024/
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