Utopia Talk / Politics / Europe still delusional about NATO

murder Member	Mon Apr 07 09:21:20 Europe needs roadmap from US on any troop pullout, says Finnish defense minister Any American withdrawal poses dangers for the continent, Antti Häkkänen warned. European NATO allies should have a "clear roadmap" spelling out how any U.S. pullout from the continent would work, Finnish Defense Minister Antti Häkkänen told POLITICO. “We need to have some sort of joint plan with Americans about a roadmap if the Americans are shifting the balance in the Pacific area in conventional defense capabilities," he said in a phone interview following an informal meeting of EU defense ministers in Warsaw. He called for a "clear roadmap" from Washington "so that there will be no kind of window of opportunity for Russia to try something," and said that U.S plans should coordinate with EU initiatives to boost the bloc's defense capacity. Häkkänen's comments echo those of German Defense Boris Pistorius, who last month asked his U.S. counterpart Pete Hegseth to “develop a roadmap to avoid gaps in capabilities, organize burden sharing progressively, to know who does what” in case the U.S shifts forces from Europe to the Indo-Pacific. Pistorius said he got no answer from either the White House or the Pentagon. European countries are scrambling to recalibrate the continent's defenses as the administration of Donald Trump wages economic war against the EU, warms ties with Russia, warns it may not defend NATO allies it feels underspend on defense, and threatens to invade Greenland. U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio — in Brussels for a meeting of NATO foreign ministers — dismissed worries about America's commitment to the alliance as "hysteria." At the same meeting, NATO chief Mark Rutte argued there are "no surprises" within the alliance and that any U.S. pivot toward Asia would be done "in a very coordinated manner." The Finnish minister was sympathetic to U.S. arguments about the need to shift to Asia. "The message I get from the Americans, and from the Pentagon side, is that we need to understand their pressure [from] China’s military buildup in the Indo-Pacific area." But any U.S. pullback from Europe poses dangers for the continent, and especially for countries close to Russia, Häkkänen warned. "Europe is too weak without U.S capabilities. It must be complemented with European capabilities,” said the minister, whose country shares a 1,340-kilometer border with Russia and whose defense forces are able to call on almost a million reservists and a whole-of-society security model of crisis preparedness. Finland joined NATO two years ago as a consequence of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The EU is playing a larger role in defense to deter the threat from Russia, an effort spurred by growing worries about the reliability of the alliance with the U.S. Häkkänen said that European Commission plans that could potentially unleash €800 billion in military spending by relaxing national fiscal rules and by offering €150 billion in defense loans, in order to boost the bloc's defenses by 2030, are "on the right track." EU leaders are expected to take a position on the Commission proposals in June. "Americans want to see clear decisions from European countries," he said. http://www...says-finnish-defense-minister/
Seb Member	Mon Apr 07 11:56:04 Murder: I don't think so. It's worth: 1. Trying to preserve some ambiguity Vis a vis Russia 2. Trying at least to agree an orderly US withdrawal than a disorderly one. Even when everyone knows that - under a Trump presidency - the US will throw Europe under the bus in a heartbeat to please Putin.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 07 13:25:46 Its always the right and the far right that thinks they can still talk politely or suck up to Trump, the further right they are the more they think that. The centre left and left wants to just boot the USA out of Europe immediately. But in this case, I agree with Seb, this is a not too important diplomatospeak way of saying, we want to know your timeline for when you plan to leave. In general, Europe is as anti-Maga as Canada, we just havent been assaulted quite as badly yet and we're not next door neighbours either.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 07 13:47:56 Currently, the Swedish christian nationalist bitch, Busch, has suddenly started calling Maga our "American friends" again in an embarrassing attempt to suck Trumps 80 yo wrinkled old dick
murder Member	Mon Apr 07 17:21:45 "But in this case, I agree with Seb, this is a not too important diplomatospeak way of saying, we want to know your timeline for when you plan to leave." We already left. Any US troops you stumble across in Europe are of no use to you. They will not engage the Russians even if they make it all the way to Berlin. They are gone. -
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 07 17:37:57 There are 84,000 US troops in Europe and apart from the far right Nimatzos, nobody wants them here anymore
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 07 17:40:52 Although its possible that this is about maintaining politeness due to the top US commanders in Europe and their European peers still being friends and shaking their heads together at this mess
Seb Member	Wed Apr 09 01:13:34 Murder: He's not talking about combat troops. He's talking about NATO support functions the US is filling. Logistics, ISTAR etc.
murder Member	Wed Apr 09 06:04:02 We're not going to provide that either. Trump is more likely to help out the Russians.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 09 07:13:08 Murder: Right, so what this guy is talking about is joint facilities like e.g. in-flight refueling from joint stocks held in German bases like Rammstein but which the US may operate. This is "ok, you are going, we want an orderly transfer". You'll note that the US ran training courses for planning in the UK this year which it has never run outside the US. There's a handover going on.
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