Utopia Talk / Politics / Bad news Sam

Seb Member	Sun Apr 13 00:45:07 http://www...icle/abs/pii/S0013935108002727 This study shows that 1936–1990 preschool blood lead trends explain 65% of the 1948–2001 variation in USA mental retardation (MR) prevalence, 45% of the 1953–2003 variation in the average scholastic achievement test (SAT) verbal score, and 65% of the 1953–2003 variation in the average SAT math score. These temporal relationships are characterized by best-fit time lags (highest R2 and t-value for blood lead) consistent with lead-induced cognitive damage in the first year of life: a 12-year lag for school-age MR, and a 17-year lag for SAT scores. Recent shifts in age-specific MR prevalence are consistent with recent trends in preschool blood lead. SAT and MR trends by race are consistent with racial differences in how 1960s slum clearance affected childhood exposure to severe lead paint hazards. SAT trends by Hispanic origin are consistent with an especially sharp fall in preschool blood lead in New York City since 1970.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 04:02:25 Crazy! How exactly does the lead get to Africa and lower the IQ there? And how does the lead stay south of the Sahara?
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 04:10:37 Iran 83 https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.php#google_vignette
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 04:18:04 Would be relevant information if the age old question was the Iranian diaspora's scholastic underachievement. But as it is that is not a question at all, the opposite in fact. Everything you do is plagued by incompetence.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 14 04:24:05 Nim: Given the study is about mental retardation measured by educational attainment in the US, not sure why sub saharan África is relevant.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 04:30:59 Incel Boi post from some MMA fighter's blog about women having inferior IQ in 3...2...
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 04:34:03 Maybe you should read the study and how they define mental retardation? "MR is characterized by significant limitations in intellectual functioning and adaptive behavior. The specific IQ associated with “limitations in intellectual functioning” has varied by state, but special education for MR generally requires IQ below 70–75" That is sub-saharan average IQ. Something is missing.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 06:15:38 William the incompetent There are two versions: 1. Male average IQ is slightly higher than female. 2. There is no IQ difference. What persists is that the male group exhibit higher variance. More retards, like you, and more geniuses like Von Neumann and Einstein. Resentment and jealousy.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 14 06:26:20 IQ tests are very good at measuring the results of IQ tests. My score on conscription screening was exceptionally high. Like top 0.1% high. I know this because the vetting officers made a huge deal of it in subsequent interviews. Why? Because some south african doctor dropped off 5 beercases of scifi books when I was 10. Those I read, poorly at first. So I utterly crushed to language portion. All difficult norwegian words were loan words of quite common english ones. I am smart, but nowhere near that smart.
jergul large member	Mon Apr 14 06:34:53 "Ulric Neisser estimated that using the IQ values of 1997, the average IQ of the United States in 1932, according to the first Stanford–Binet Intelligence Scales standardization sample, was 80. Neisser states that "Hardly any of them would have scored 'very superior', but nearly one-quarter would have appeared to be 'deficient.'" He also wrote that "Test scores are certainly going up all over the world, but whether intelligence itself has risen remains controversial."" Wiki
jergul large member	Mon Apr 14 06:37:15 IQ tests measures something in other words, but that something is unlikely to be intelligence. For it would be odd if we all were geniuses suddenly when compared to people a few generations back.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 14 06:40:30 Nim: Probably the bit about how IQ scores generally don't work well across cultural/geographical borders.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 14 06:44:12 I'm just tying to get my head around Nims objection here. It appears to be this: "but special education for MR generally requires IQ below 70–75 (National Research Council, 1982). By definition, average IQ is 100, and 25% of the population has IQ below 90, so a loss of 15–25 IQ points due to blood lead of 40–80 μg/dL suggests lead exposure could substantially affect the percent of children satisfying the MR condition of significant intellectual limitations." Combined with the fact that sub-saharan Africans obtain lower average scores in a test known to not work particularly well. The only real question is whether IQ is well calibrated in the US for the population in question. You can focus on the SAT elements instead of you like.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 06:44:31 All it means is that if a particular ability is required according to how we shape a particular society, we adapt somewhat to that requirement. If we developed our society where being able to differentiate between colours is of use, we'll improve somewhat at that, based on our society focusing on education and promotion of colour differentiation. And the ability will fade away if our society decides that being able to differentiate between sounds is more important instead. Then we put together a test to measure colour-differentiating ability, and insecure little idiots who are always happy to find someone they can belittle to feel more secure about themselves go, "Ha! I can differentiate between colours faster than you, so you are not fit to live, according to Darwin! Haha!"
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 06:59:33 Seb So you theory is that people of African descent, regardless of culture score about the same on IQ tests, but some of them because they don't understand raven matrices, and the others because of led in the water? What an amazing coincidence. It's false btw. The most simple and general IQ tests pose no cultural barriers.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 07:25:45 Seb "I'm just tying to get my head around Nims objection here." "You can focus on the SAT elements instead of you like." Well you are certainly going to have to deal with Jergul's objection as well since the study you are using is relying heavily on IQ tests. Jergul is over-selling his argument. Yes, IQ test are not a perfect measure of intelligence, nobody actually suggests this. However, It is good enough for a variety of stuff and correlates with a bunch of outcomes. It's good enough to study population, but it can fall apart, especially when it comes to exceptional individuals. You can fin exceptionally wealth people with below average IQ and vice versa. Because IQ, despite it's importance is only one factor. Raven matrices, which are used to compare cross culture IQ scores are not culturally skewed. They measure abstract reasoning and patter recognition.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 14 07:45:08 Nim: "So you theory is that people of African descent..." And your theory is that while lead accumulation explains declines across a range of metrics across all other races in the US, because sub-saharan Americans score low on IQ, which is independently known to not work well for cross border studies like this, it's more likely the explanation in this case (also implying black folks are resistant to cognitive impact of lead poisoning)?
Seb Member	Mon Apr 14 07:56:20 "Raven matrices, which are used to compare cross culture IQ scores are not culturally skewed" It's designed to limit the impact of linguistic cultural differences. However there's other factors at play - greater experience and practice in application of spatial reasoning type problems for example. http://cog...les/10.1186/s41235-021-00350-w http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/019188699290037P Generally it's still not recognised as a valid way to try and compare the intelligence of wildly different populations.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 12:47:45 Two review articles. The first one read like an opinion piece. The second one uses data, at best with contradictory results and yet manages to assert that it is unsuitable because some results were divergent results. White ans blacks followed their group while indians and colored did not. This was garbage seb. Logical abstraction, using universal shapes and geometry is a result of living in 3 dimensional space. Patter recognition is a human trait. This isn’t that difficult. Sub-saharan Africans regardless of continent. 0 great civilizations. No golden age at any point. Zero fields medals. Zero Noble prizes. Zero democracies. Not a single theoretical physicist of note. I am sure the problem is that Raven matrices are doing a poor job approximating intelligence across cultures. And the one group it fails are sub-saharan Africans.
Forwyn Member	Mon Apr 14 12:52:43 To summarize: ooga booga
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 13:29:17 The trouble with coming from low IQ countries such as conservative Iran with an average IQ of 83 is that IQ only develops by 1.2 IQ points per decade when countries with much higher IQs, such as liberal Sweden give you the opportunity to develop. But if you come from low IQ parents who have fled a conservative country to be saved by a decent liberal country, as in Incels case, and can only progress by 1.2 IQ points, you are likely to be blinded by shiny trinkets like iPhones and confuse owning an iPhone with higher IQ. Shiny trinkets have always been a classic way of tricking the stupid.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 14 13:49:18 I find it utterly fascinating that somehow Nim is intent on trying to disprove a totally uncontroversial study about lead exposure explaining racial variation of intelligence proxies in the US, which covers a number of racial groups, including Latinos, by arguing by there's been no sub-saharan theoretical physicists. As for great civilisations, we'd probably count the ancient Egyptians who were defeated and occupied by sub-saharan Kush civilisation. At this point he's just mindlessly regurgitating hoary old white supremacist bullshit.
Forwyn Member	Mon Apr 14 14:00:52 Since when is Kush sub-Saharan?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 14:03:17 What you are claiming is not uncontroversial. Kush is not counted as a subsaharan civilization. Invaders and barbarians regularly came from less civilized cultures, Huns, Vandals, Turks, Mongols etc. Egypt was dominated by everyone, for ever. It’s one river, no wildlands or mountains. The only natural barrier is the desert and ultimately easy to overcome. Your understanding of history is terrible.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 14:04:23 Forwyn Member Mon Apr 14 14:00:52 Since when is Kush sub-Saharan? A bizarre straw to grab. At least he is being creative and unpredictable!
Rugian Member	Mon Apr 14 14:04:54 "As for great civilisations, we'd probably count the ancient Egyptians who were defeated and occupied by sub-saharan Kush civilisation." Sure, in Egypt's declining years. Are we considering barbarians who manage to overthrow an empire to themselves be members of a great civilization? In that case, must we count the Gutians, Sea Peoples, Goths, and the like as representative of humanity's peak achievements?
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 14:26:57 "Invaders and barbarians regularly came from less civilized cultures, Huns, Vandals, Turks, Mongols etc. Your understanding of history is terrible." "The Mongol Empire covered the most contiguous territory in history. During that time, it expanded to cover most of Eurasia, thanks to advanced technology. Roger Bacon attributed the success of the Mongols as world conquerors principally to their devotion to mathematics" Sigh. Of course, they didnt have iPhones, and Incel thinks in all other cases that any conquering nation is a more advanced nation, but...sigh
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 14:29:11 I need an aspirin after reading that delusional facebook manosphere rewriting of history :(
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 14:37:13 I suppose that when your country gets conquered by Islam, you need to hurriedly rethink your macho man theories about alpha male superiority and strength, and how you lost because you were - ummm - superior - at - errr - culinary science or something
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 14:45:57 William the incompetent. No the Mongols are not known for their civilization building, technology and certainly not math. The Empire didn’t survive the Khan and the successor states like the Yuan and Ilkhanat were fully native within a generation, they absorbed and assimilated with Chinese and Iranian cultures respectively. The Mongols *became* civilized this way, leaving no lasting legacy and their only impact one of genocide and destruction, they were very good at that.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 14:46:51 Lol...I mean, alpha males are about being strong and macho and mighty supremacy warriors who can defend themselves, but when someone comes along and is even stronger and beats the snot out of them, suddenly strength is about primitive tribes…lol…what is the point of supreme alpha male strength when primitive tribes can smack the snot out of your supreme alpha male country and still own it almost 1000 years later??
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 14:48:59 Alpha male supremacy is when WE win! When THEY win, its primitive tribes, OK??
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 14:58:00 William the incompetent No, the mongols were masters of warefare and had perfected the nomadic style of warefare. They also excelled at intelligence gathering. They also caught both the Chinese and Khwarazmian empire in weakened position. Islamic conquest is a bit more complex, preceded by a long costly war between the Sassanids and Rome, with Arab vassals caught in the middle. A civil war in Iran, changing kings like they are underwear. Social unrest and upheaval has the millenia old federation between Sassanids and Parthian houses disolve. Resistance was never effective.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 14:58:22 thick as a plank
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 15:05:31 Incompetent, resentful and cowardly with a history of preying on vulnerable people.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 15:07:33 Just shut it, you inferior insect
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 15:14:31 ”I know it is very popular for us westerns to buy vitamin pills” - Incel on his dating site lol… You are not a ”western”, you are from an inferior, by your standards, tribe that to this day has an average IQ of 83 and has been owned by Islam for 1500 years
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 15:15:16 We knew this would happen. Everything you do is plagued by incompetence. You are all over the place, again barely able to hold a single coherent thought in you head. Take for exmaple you talking about the Islamic conquest of Iran and then jumping to the process of Islamization of Iran. The throwing SUPREMACY in there. Following your thinking process is like watching someone take a shit while they are in a car crash.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 15:18:18 There is no doubt that Iran its culture and people have been paying a heavy price for adopting an inferior religion. This is like my hobby horse. How fucking dumb are you?
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 15:26:23 When you were dreaming about daring to open an account on a dating site, I was dating Anna Järphammar...lol..
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 15:32:41 I am in horror of the scandalous things you have found me write 20 years ago on that site, like being assimilated enough to view myself as a westerner. Have you found anything close to joining a nazi gang or the demonic psychosis you have had on UP? What about scaring and beating up old homeless people?
williamthebastard Member	Mon Apr 14 15:32:50 And Agneta Sjödin (for only about 3 weeks), but still, you were wanking off to her while I was out on dates with her, you tiny speck of dust
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 15:34:28 As I wrote in the other thread, you assured you don’t read; your life peaked when you were a bartender.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Apr 14 15:37:34 I was busy getting a useful degree and laying the foundation for my future. So I didn’t grow up to be a resentful 50 year old literal incel who has to reference dates he had 20 years ago as the high point of his life. Sad.
Pillz Member	Mon Apr 14 16:07:31 Intelligence has expanded but base human intelligence seems fairly fixed relative to what we have available. Or we really want to trivialize the most important millenia of our species because they didn't take IQ tests
jergul large member	Mon Apr 14 16:34:38 Cutie, did you actually lay that foundation? What are you plans for your sons accomodations when they to to uni for example? <3
jergul large member	Mon Apr 14 16:42:03 I gave my offspring an apartment to share in a uni town, but no pressure :)
Sam Adams Member	Mon Apr 14 18:25:50 Anyway, lead is well correlated with reduced iq. As is black dna. Nuff said.
obaminated Member	Mon Apr 14 21:44:49 Wtb calls any who disagrees with him an incel, then randomly proceeds to claim he used to date Swedish supermodels. This is projection this forum hasn't seen since cuckhat called everyone a failure at life and poor while claiming he was a billionaire married to a supermodel he regularly had 3 somes with.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 01:05:23 It's located in Sudan FFS. http://www...E2%80%93%204th%20century%20AD. "The sub-Saharan Kingdom of Kush, in what is now northern Sudan, helped define the cultural and political landscape in this region from around 7th century BC – 4th century AD"
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 03:18:06 Sub-saharan is not used as a strict geographic description, Sudan, Ethiopia and the horn of Africa have been part of the classical world and Northern Africa. Places like Kush, Nubia and Axum. This is a meaningless debate. The capacity for conquest a great civilization does not make. This is the unintended irony of william the incompetent who goes around mocking alpha this and incel that and seb as well who sees himself as some advanced cultured male who went to a good school. They point to conquest as the singular hallmark to identify a great civilization.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 03:27:54 Old man gaygul You are slow and stupid. William the resentful is talking about 20 years ago when I was 24. His greatest achievement are back then and it involves dating women. I was busy studying and indeed laying the foundation so I don’t need feel insecure when an arctic goat herder projects his shortcomings as a husband and father.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 15 03:39:05 Cutie, no need to get defensive. I am just offering advice of how to guide your children through university <3.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 04:01:19 Nim: You are correct it's irrelevant. The original study showed the impact of lead during infancy and childhood (well known to cause cognitive impairment) explains racial variations in mental impairment and education on populations in the US, and geographical variation in exposure explained most of the racial patterns in mental impairment *in the US* across racial groups (of which black is just one) *in the US*. For you to suggest that actually - specifically those US populations of sub-saharan ancestry, it's more likely genetics - would imply that lead exposure, while affecting other races, somehow doesn't affect sub-saharan Africans. It's absolutely ridiculous. And then you went on one of those hoary old white supremacist rants long debunked that attempts to claim no advanced civilisations in sub-saharan Africa. The main reason Kush isn't considered sub-saharan despite being centred well into the Sahel and being depicted as very very black compared to Mediterranean populations is precisely because the idea of a black civilization beating classical Mediterranean and other civilisations ran counter to 19th and early 20th c notions of racial theories.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 04:13:43 Gaygul A sperm donor who says "Mothers carry the burden of fostering" is not in a position to give advice about guiding children.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 04:25:30 Seb We have not come any further. The patterns for IQ of people from sub-saharan lineages remains consistent. Lead or no lead. "ran counter to 19th and early 20th c notions of racial theories." I don't care about notions of racial theories from 200 years ago. Inferior cultures were beating the Romans, Greeks and Persians long before that. "claim no advanced civilisations in sub-saharan Africa." There were no advanced civilization in sub-saharan Africa, even if we were to give you Kush. Which we are not, because of historical reasons. You understand? The average IQ of the region that was Kush is sub-saharan levels, but we are still not going to give you Kush as a Sub-saharan cultures. 0 great civilizations. No golden age at any point. Zero fields medals. Zero Noble prizes. Zero democracies. Not a single theoretical physicist of note. Is not a value judgment it's facts. Observation.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 04:38:54 "I pretend I is a western on daytin sites cos I is knoe that my inferior ME tribe has averidge IQ of 83"
jergul large member	Tue Apr 15 04:50:48 Cutie, like I said in the other thread, I am making a data driven observation. What gender dominates the time spent on the care of children? If you want to get really into it. Take the median swedish 44 year old woman. A single parent of 1 child. She also works as a teacher. How much time is she spending fostering children compared to the median male?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 05:12:30 Gaygul So you have divorced your wife. Is that what you are saying low res low iq internet old guy?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 05:48:07 Because that is the only way it makes sense for you to talk about single mothers. Who, btw, the single worst constellation for outcome in children. Did you forget that this started as jab towards me (that backfired). I am not a single mother household gaygul. And why would you compare single mothers, with "males" a group including people who never had children. This is you making "data driven observation" and "getting in to it". LOL :)
jergul large member	Tue Apr 15 06:14:26 Cutie, of course not. I too am very good at choosing life partners. Again, talking about single mothers is data driven. And again, I was not speaking of you or me in particular when pointing out the fact that women dominate the time spent on fostering children. Sure you know that? You outsource a lot of the fostering to pre-school and the school system. Where women again dominate. There we are. I am always glad to help you make sense of the universe you find yourself in <3. I will have a chat with my dad soon to see if he feels like an old has-been. If he can spare the time off from the tennis courts. What sports is your father into?
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 09:27:58 "The original study showed the impact of lead during infancy and childhood (well known to cause cognitive impairment) explains racial variations in mental impairment" So let me get this strait... you are admitting that certain crops of racial minorities have increased mental impairment seb?
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 09:30:57 "The original study showed the impact of lead during infancy and childhood (well known to cause cognitive impairment) explains racial variations in mental impairment" So let me get this strait... you are admitting that certain crops of racial minorities have increased mental impairment seb?
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 09:31:07 "0 great civilizations. No golden age at any point. Zero fields medals. Zero Noble prizes. Zero democracies. Not a single theoretical physicist of note." Indeed. Especially when you consider how long africa was populated and its size... that very little civilization developed there must have a cause. It was not random.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 10:32:22 Nim has gone full idiot and declares that African Americans are immune to lead poisoning. Wonderful.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 10:35:14 Sam: "So let me get this strait... you are admitting that certain crops of racial minorities have increased mental impairment seb?" I'm saying that according to this study at least 65% of the observed variation in cognitive impairment and basic educational attainment in the US that you often point to can be explained by a single environmental factor: exposure to greater amounts of lead; as opposed to genetics as you do often claim.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 10:36:58 Sam: "Zero fields medals. Zero Noble prizes. Zero democracies. Not a single theoretical physicist of note." Indeed. Especially when you consider how long africa was populated" It is indeed a puzzler that Africa 10000BC to 1900 AD produced no Field medals or Noble prizes.
Pillz Member	Tue Apr 15 10:53:22 Democracy is both a failure and now a token name for something that is not at all democratic except that it emphasizes and reinforces the failings of an actual democratic system. Democracy should be used as evidence of mass intellectual weakness, not a measure of potential or realized success.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 10:54:12 Zero Noble prizes. Lol, complete lie
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 11:00:55 So seb you would agree that negros in the US do test much lower, regardless of the cause? Re africa: why didnt the africans develop their own civilization with their own science and their own medals? They had a couple hundred thousand year head start, a good climate and plenty of resources. Why was nothing done until humans left africa? Seems like there almost certainly was a genetic leap when humans leaving africa got a bump. Neanderthal hybridization is the leading theory but im open to others.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 11:07:35 How come all americans with american ancestors going only a few generations back are descended from a population with an average of 70 - 80 IQ, ODDams?
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 11:16:22 The average IQ of the American generation your grandfather belong to was 90 IQ. The average IQ of your great grandfathers generation was 80 IQ points. As a very recent descendent of people with such low IQ points, and in accordance with your belief that IQ is fixed, and aside from your clinical ODD diagnosis which is strongly linked to average/low IQ according to research, we can only conclude one thing about your IQ.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 11:23:45 The average IQ of the 67,000 american soldiers lying in graves in France was 80 points. All retards.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 11:33:52 I suppose that is why Trump, the only person as fixated on IQ as ODDams that I can think of, refuses to honour those "suckers". Luckily, the French have a much more respectfull culture and honour these low IQ foreigners every year.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 11:53:05 Sam: "why didnt the africans develop their own civilization with their own science and their own medals" This reminds me of how people insisted there was no really advanced civilizations in Latin America on the basis that when the Spanish turned up they faced a civilisation collapsed by a plague. Similar to how Europeans
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 11:54:13 Since IQ is very clearly tied to societal factors such as access to education and healthy diet (healthy diet being a positive for every aspect of an animal's existence), its interesting to note that all countries with higher IQ are liberal democracies and all countries with lower IQ are conservative countries, liberal and conservative politics being societal functions that dictate the form of society probably more than any other societal factor.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 12:01:26 China being the only exception with a high average IQ but not much democracy (and certainly not ruled by rightwing politics), but theyre not really an exception, because one of the correlations they share with liberal democracies is that they provide similar access to education and decent diet.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 12:34:57 "This reminds me of how people insisted there was no really advanced civilizations in Latin America on the basis that when the Spanish turned up" When the rennaisance age spanish showed up they faced 3 late stone age civs approximately 4000 years behind them, and other civs even further back. But in a way that just highlights the utter failure of africa. Humans only arrived in the americas about 12k years ago, and in that time went to late stone age in approximately 3 places... possibly 4 if you count the Mississippi river civ that went extinct. Meanwhile a much much longer ammount of time passed in africa without nearly as rapid pace of advance.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 14:12:30 Seb ZERO.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 14:48:22 ^Lol, youve gotta laugh at people who pretend theyre westerners on dating sites but are from a nation with a current average IQ of 83 applauding an idiot racist who has clinically been diagnosed with a mental illness that is generally associated with average/low IQ...this is the fascist manosphere world in action, where punch drunk MMA fighters and illiterate bodybuilders have been elevated to the wise philosophers of their world of insecure stupidity
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 14:53:04 I mean, a dating site is pretty embarrassing stuff, but sosauve.org isnt even a dating site where you can pick up women, its a dating site just for men where they discuss why theyre failing with women and tricks and tips to succeeding better with women lol...its straight out of the Incel playbook :D
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 15:28:47 when people like Jake Shields have become their version of intellectuals and thinkers, you know we are deep in the age of utter stupidity
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 15:42:43 There are few examples of European stone age civilisations with the scale of communication and organisation over distance that south American civilisations had. Placed side by side with European stone age civilisations they'd have eaten them for breakfast. Labelling them as such boils down to American civilisations not having access to iron, which is likely a consequence of availability of suitable ores and treats such discoveries as a question of intelligence, rather than a confluence of factors. The ancient geeks and Romans failing to invent the steam engine despite having all the parts being available is not due to them being genetically inferior and lacking intelligence to 17th century Europeans. It's very likely that iron working in the old world was as much spread by knowledge transfer than being independently discovered by each race as and when "they got smart enough". Civilisations based in the old world have an automatic advantage because more people x more communication means it's more likely a discovery will happen and be communicated over time to everyone else. And something very similar is true of sub-saharan Africa. I'm not going to point out all the old African kingdoms that existed simply because it's really easy to find out and if you are saying "zero" it's because you are creating arbitrary criteria of what counts as a "great" civilization using faulty arguments like "has access to iron" as a proxy for average intelligence of the population. Which is either proof of idiocy or bad faith.I can't be bothered to challenge.
Seb Member	Tue Apr 15 15:46:10 Similarly, the Chinese not having access to the technologies that Europeans did in the 18th and 19th century was little at all to do with the intelligence of Chinese people generally, and entirely to do with the structure of their economy. Indeed they often had invented sophisticated machinery but treated them as trinkets and novelties for the elite target than deployed them at scale. It's genuinely bizarre knowing all this that anyone would advance this as a proxy marker for average individual intelligence in a population.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 15:59:12 US wealth was built on the exact opposite of freedom: slavery. There is no more perfect antonym for freedom than slavery, but that is what built the USA.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 16:10:06 This is right up there with nazis who think theyre intellectual and well-read historians when they think they prove that Jews are the "weakest race", because they couldnt maintain their own country and were hounded out of every country they migrated to for 2500 years. Why didnt Vikings lose their country for 2500 years and could only maintain a state when superior whites gave them one? Because vikings are superior. etc etc
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 16:32:37 Seb Zero great civilizations. The definition is not arbitrary. Having lasting legacy and contributing to intellectual output. We can dive into the reason why, broadly speaking evolution. Sub-Saharan Africa did not, historically, develop complex agricultural systems and large-scale urban centers on the same scale or timeline as regions like the Middle East, China, or Europe. The why is interesting, but not so relevant for my point. This matters because those environments exerted strong, sustained selection pressures on traits like abstract reasoning, long-term planning, and organizational skills, exactly the kinds of traits that are highly adaptive in complex societies. However, of limited usefulness for a hunter gatherer. With the rise of complex agriculture and cities, a useless niche became extremely useful in literate, bureaucratic, technologically advancing civilizations. Raven's Progressive Matrices and similar non verbal IQ tests try to isolate core components of cognition, fluid intelligence, pattern recognition, and abstract problem solving. These abilities are closely linked to mathematical thinking and scientific reasoning. Furthermore, seasonality and colder climates exert their own unique evolutionary pressures by demanding long term planning and foresight for survival as there are long periods of scarcity. In contrast, equatorial climates, while not necessarily easier, allow for more immediate resource access all year. Different environments pose different types and degrees of challenge, rewarding and punishing distinct survival strategies. Harsher, more seasonal environments tend to favor traits associated with delayed gratification and future planning.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 16:44:16 Seb, the progress of civilization equals the combination of time and intelligence, plus some luck and rescources. We dont know the exact relative IQs of say rome vs spain vs mexico vs china vs industrial britain, as the least advanced generally had the least time, and the most advanced the most time, and the pace of advancement is close enough that many non-iq factors could explain the differences. But ss africa breaks far out of that mold. They had tons of time and little/no advancement. Their invention rate is orders of magnitude lower, thus it is probable that lower iq was holding them back.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 16:55:31 Homo sapiens exist in africa for 300k years and 3 complete glacial cycles. 0 civilizations. Homo sapiens leave africa and as soon as that ice age ends a dozen different non-african civilization centers pop up. It is thus almost certain that the crop of homo sapiens leaving africa were superior in intelligence to those in africa. I dont see any other reasonable explanation. Homo-sapiens-africanus was just barely not intelligent enough to create civilization. Homo-sapiens leaving africa crossed that threshold, and is now capable of civilization-making(barely).
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 15 17:10:37 Indeed sam makes a great argument. That is why I listed all those things. Every major center of civilization Asia, Europe and ME have contributed to those things. There are Chinese and Iranian theoretical physicist and Fields medal winners. We can read about the Tang Dynasty and their incredible cities. We can read about the Sassanid wars against Rome. There was something called the Islamic golden age where almost all the scientific output of the world was coming from central Asia facilitated by my ancestors. Not on top of their game, seen better days, China is doing pretty well though. The point is that in the grand scheme of things everyone has their highs and lows. Everyone besides Africa.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Apr 15 17:17:45 Lol! Meanwhile, Oddams is going, I dunno why this 83 IQ sandnigger from Iran is trying to suck my cock, but whatever
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 18:43:25 Take your meds wtb. Be less angry. Get outside more.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 15 19:04:43 The civ i'm most impressed with, other than the US/uk/greco-roman line, is the polynesians. Obviously i'm biased towards explorers but their sailing was wayyy beyond what their tech level should have allowed. Knew latitude, knew longitude existed but knew they couldnt calculate it. Possibly the single point of invention for for-aft rigging. The romans might have independently developed that but i suspect they simply copied polynesia. Theres no reason to think that isolated roman-polynesian contact didnt occur as they were the two clear best sailers at the time. Pretty impressive for polynesias otherwise stone age ability.
Pillz Member	Wed Apr 16 01:29:21 Roflmao Seb says Latin American stone age civilizations are more advanced than European ones But Europe spawned Greco Roman civilization somehow I guess just from throwing notes tied to stones for hundreds of years to communicate or something. I really can't believe that sentence wtf seb
Pillz Member	Wed Apr 16 01:31:00 Like yeah sure Seb tying knots is impressive Not as impressive as writing encyclopedias Oh I guess that doesn't count because they stopped being stone age or something Fucking retarded Europeans holy shit
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 16 01:34:48 rolfmao Pillz says he made a chat bot sentient and self aware by locking himself away in a dark room he's stopped paying rent for for 2 weeks and chatting with it tweaked up over his ears on amphetamines Maga really attracts the most ill people in the USA
Pillz Member	Wed Apr 16 01:39:14 Your posts were at 6PM and 2AM EST. You're in Europe. So either you don't sleep at night and can't focus on work (if you even have a job) without refreshing UP constantly - pathetic. Or the first and last things you do are come here to shit post.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 16 01:39:50 8:30 AM dumbass.
Pillz Member	Wed Apr 16 01:40:40 Wtb's reading comprehension = zero Noted.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Apr 16 01:41:20 Pillz sanity=zero I made a chatbot sentient and self aware! rofl...
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